What's going on?

by biblexaminer 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • biblexaminer
    biblexaminer

    I finally found the words to describe what's happening with the JWs all around me. It's the difference between faith, and superstitious attachment.

    The dictionary describes faith as found below. After which is found the definition of superstition. Go over them first, and then refer back to them as you read my notes posted below them.
    [BLOCKQUOTE]
    faith (f³th) n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance. 4. Often Faith. Theology. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion. 6. A set of principles or beliefs. --idiom. in faith. Indeed; truly.

    su·per·sti·tion (s›”p…r-st¹sh“…n) n. 1. An irrational belief that an object, an action, or a circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. 2.a. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance. b. A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality. c. Idolatry.
    [/BLOCKQUOTE]
    Jws profess to have faith. And since I am one, albeit on the surface, and associate with them regularly, I am in a good position to make statements of fact, to the effect of setting out the truth in this regard.

    If one were to look carefully at the definitions above, one would see that at some point, the two definitions cross paths. Yet there is a critical difference between the two, and the rank & file JW fits categorically into the latter.

    In both situations, the person has a profoundly held belief, but the main difference seems clearly to be that in the case of superstition, the belief is irrational. The dictionary defines irrational as below.
    [BLOCKQUOTE]
    ir·ra·tion·al (¹-r²sh“…-n…l) adj. 1.a. Not endowed with reason. b. Affected by loss of usual or normal mental clarity; incoherent, as from shock. c. Marked by a lack of accord with reason or sound judgment.

    [/BLOCKQUOTE]
    So, how to set the record straight.

    Jws will all talk about reasoning, and they will attempt to hold anyone they talk to this standard. Yet, what happens when the one they talk to knows a little too much for their taste and holds them to their own standard? What happens when you "reason" with them and they begin to see a huge hole in their own theology?

    They revert to "we have the truth" and "we have the faithful slave". They SEEK COMFORT in a type of "rabbit's foot" that’s hung around their neck. They begin to rub this "rabbit's foot", their organization "talisman" and to seek comfort in the "irrational" belief that invoking the organization will save them.

    Even if they can clearly see that the organization is wrong, the organization is still right, because it's God's organization after all. Circular reasoning it's true. But more interestingly, they don't need "reason" to come to this conclusion.

    I remember a conversation I had with one JW I know well. I pointed out the Watchtower's errors in its teaching regarding Pentecost 33CE and what REALLY took place. Once he ran out of arguments and saw that there was no way to refute the truth presented to him, once the WTS's error was made plain, he immediately, and very predictability, reverted to "well we have the faithful slave". Rub, rub.

    In another scenario, I inquired about the "generation" teaching from one sister who was going on about the great ORG, and she unequivocally threw in her lot with the WTS's position. Then I asked her to explain it. All I got was a blank stare. She couldn't explain it. Yet she made clear that she wholeheartedly believed it! Irrational?

    I reminded her that, a year after the "generation change" came out, brother X gave a public talk on the subject. When he got to the part where he had to explain the "new light", he stumbled, and stumbled. He resembled a man trying to get a rusty nut loose with the wrong tool. This way, then that.

    Finally, Brother X reached down below to the bound volume he had brought up there with him. There was a long pause as he fumbled through the book to find it. Then, he read it WORD FOR WORD.

    I asked the sister, who attended that same meeting. "Did Brother X understand it?" She acknowledged that he did not. Then I went on to explain that nobody in the hall did either!

    Rational? Faith, or SUPERSTITON?

    If a JW is cornered, they will almost without exception rub their "rabbit's foot". I imagine them pulling out their Watchtower magazine like a comfort blanket, and staring at it trying to remember the video where they saw the Organizational Bigness with it's tall buildings and printing presses, thus charging up their superstitious batteries.

    I hasten to say that the WTS could do away with god entirely and the org would suffice. The great Org. becomes a god in and of itself. I think that if our Lord and Savior and his Father were surgically removed, JWs would still go to the hall, bang the doors, attend the assemblies and do whatever they are told to do,

    Take one last look at the final word in the definition of superstition. (above)

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    Interesting point, and one which came home to me very forcefully earlier this evening. I post occasionally on Nic's MSN board, and there is a JW there who is posting about her having the "truth". I, and one other poster have been asking her very specific questions about things. Rather than answering anything that makes her uncomfortable or that she couldn't answer without betraying the illogic of her reasoning, she immediately resorts to "I have the truth and that is all I need to know." "I don't need to go to apostate sites, because I have the truth, and they have only lies."

    You can almost hear the door closing in her mind, while she recites and types the mantra, "I have the truth. I have the truth."

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    RedhorseWoman,

    It gets frustrating doesn't it? It is like dealing with a handicap person.

  • slipnslidemaster
    slipnslidemaster

    Sad really.

    I would have followed with an attack on exactly who is the faithful and discreet slave? Charles Russell??

    Of course it wouldn't have mattered. Rub, rub.

    Slipnslidemaster: Doin' the humpty hump...just doin' the humpty hump...

  • poohbear1962
    poohbear1962

    Examiner,

    Excellent post!!! I only wish they could SEE it and get PAST the superstition!! It is SOOOOOOOOOOO FRUSTRATING!!! *grrrrrrrrr*

    Also, you mentioned "I pointed out the Watchtower's errors in its teaching regarding Pentecost 33CE and what REALLY took place. Once he ran out of arguments and saw that there was no way to refute the truth presented to him, once the WTS's error was made plain, he immediately, and very predictability, reverted to "well we have the faithful slave" ...can you elaborate? I haven't heard about this before... and I am most interested!!

    Thanks in advance!!!

    Pooh

  • biblexaminer
    biblexaminer

    Are you curious about Pentecost?

    I wrote a treatise on the subject. If you read it, then you would know all I have to offer on the subject.

    I guess I could put it up in the other section.

  • buffalosrfree
    buffalosrfree

    Bibleexaminer, Hi guy, glad to read whenever you post. All the little do(s) and don'ts that people have, i.e. no say bless you when someone sneezes. you can't wish someone a happy birthday, etc. remind me of the shades of oriental superstitions I've heard in some eighteen years of running around the orient. I for one would love to read you post on the Pentecost or anyone else's for that matter. I feel for you in that you have to be involved or at least appear to, I was that way also especially at the book study, in never failed to amaze me no pun intended, that some were actually thinking the drivel put forth by the books was actually factual, no thinking just answer what they want you too. and when you asked how could this be, those scriptures were not talking about such and such and they would just look at you with brain dead eyes and go right on giving lip service to their god the governing body and his son stupidity. Agape Buff

  • wannahelp
    wannahelp

    Interesting post... I've been trying to show my JW friend for about 8 months now that he doesn't have the truth.. On 2 seperate occaisions, both by accident, I got him to actually shake and I saw the fear of God, errr, the GB, in his eyes..

    And both times, he ended the conversation with, "It's a good way to live"... I guess that's the current version of the rabbit's foot...

    It is very frustrating, especially now, since he is dating, and I don't want him to make a mistake that he will regret for the rest of his life, considering I know how shallow and superficial their "love" is towards one another... If nothing else, I hope that the girl he is dating really loves him, and not just "witness love"...

    BTW: Watching him actually think on his own about questions regarding the organization, and trying to come up with answers are almost just as painful.. Let alone that most of the answers don't make sense... He actually get's physically ill...!!!

  • biblexaminer
    biblexaminer

    I posted the Pentecost study I did under Bible Research thread. I am sure my study could be taken a step or two further, ie. dating etc as some have posted there. And I am sure that there are still things that I am missing. But in all, the error of the WTS's postion is clear.

    Some bozos posted reply to the Pentecost paper with "too long" etc. I don't think they realized that they clicked the Bible Research thread and not the porno911 thread, or the thread for weak minds link. Or the general blabidy blab therad.

    We mailed this study to multiple Watchtower branch offices around the world. The Watchtower countered about 8 months after that with artlcles re-affirming their position, but since there was no Biblical basis for their teaching, they used artwork. They painted pictures of their false doctrine, (ie Peter on a belcony like the Pope in St. Peter's square) because they know that this will stick to the JW mind. Little minds.

    I see others have seen the stupidity of sitting in a books study with the WTS pulling your strings.

    BX: What a wasted life I live, as I live the life I waste.

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

    I find there to be an interesting dichotomy between definition 1 and 2 of faith. Both use the word believe but to me definition number 1 clearly pertains to faith that is based on experience whereas 2 pertains to faith that has no basis.

    I have faith in people in my life who have proven to be that they are worthy of having faith in. There aren't many of these people.

    I have always thought it odd that although the Bible in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures shows that God's people required him to demonstrate his power to them before they would have faith in him. God continuously was said to have given signs of his presence and power, making the sun stand still, parting the Red sea, resurrecting the dead, bringing plagues on a world power in a specific sequence. Then Jesus again also had to perform miracles in order for people to believe who he was. In other words, just saying he had the truth wasn't enough. In addition, not even living a good sinless life, dying for others, teaching with love, etc, was enough. He still had to perform miracles on and on and on in order to attract followers, again, raising the dead, healing the sick and crippled, feeding 1000's, turning water to wine, walking on water.

    Yet, we today, in supposedly the most significant age of time ever for needing faith, are not provided with miracles. Jehovah has never performed miracles or had earthly representatives perform miracles for us to witness. There was no plagues on Nazi Germany due to the persecution of his people or in Malawi or in China or Russia, etc. They have been no mass miraculous signs to his people. There are no healings, resurrections, etc even though we have annointed brothers of Christ still here among us.

    And yet, we will be judged forever based on our reaction to the words of this earthly organization.

    Indeed, the Bible record shows that faith was always based on physical manifestations and was never expected without any basis for belief.

    hugs

    Joel

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