Help! Rev. 1:11, someone expain?

by FRUSR8TD 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Earnest

  While the Authorised (King James) Version of the Bible is a work of scholarship and beauty it has the handicap of being translated almost 400 years ago. The textual support available then was primarily two rather inferior manuscripts in the university library at Basle, both dating from about the twelfth century, as well as the singular incomplete manuscript of Revelation mentioned in my previous post.

  Much of what you said regarding the versions is true but not as early as you suggest and with limited support for the King James version:

  The Old Syriac version of the Gospels is preserved in two incomplete manuscripts copied in the fourth and fifth centuries. It does not particularly support the King James readings.

  Several of the 350+ manuscripts of the Peshitta date from the fifth and sixth centuries. They do not contain 2 Peter, 2-3 John, Jude or Revelation. The Gospels largely support the King James readings.

  The Old Latin manuscripts (of which only one contains Revelation in full) date from the fourth to the thirteenth century. The manuscript containing Revelation is sixth century but contains many scribal errors and is a rather free translation. There is very little consistency in these texts (which is why Jerome produced the Vulgate) so they don't collectively support any particular reading.

  There are nine extant Gothic manuscripts (all of which are fragmentary) containing the Gospels and the Pauline letters. The most complete of these is the codex Argenteus dating from the fifth or sixth century. Unfortunately, we do not have the full benefit of these manuscripts due to partisanship in the academic field!

  There are two Armenian version types. The first was based on the Syriac version and probably translated by Mesrop around A.D.400. The oldest existing copy was written in the ninth century. The second type was a revision of the first on the basis of Greek manuscripts and was completed in the twelfth century by Nerses of Lampron, bishop of Tarsus. This type has some support for the King James version.

  So when it comes to Revelation, I'm afraid the versions are not much help. Apart from the footnotes in the NWT, I have also found the Nestle-Aland Greek-English New Testament, distributed by the United Bible Society, to be invaluable in determining the manuscript support for various readings. If you are interested in textual criticism I would recommend a number of books by Bruce Metzger including "The Text of the New Testament" and "The Early Versions of the New Testament" (from which I got much of the info in this post). He makes it very easy to undertand and provides loads of references for further study if desired. For more detailed information I would recommend "The Text of the New Testament" by Kurt and Barbara Aland.

  It's not quite clear to me whether your interest is in Rev.1:11 or the entire book of Revelation. But in general the textual support comes from p18(third/fourth century), p24(fourth), p43(sixth/seventh), p47(third), p85(fourth/fifth) Aleph(fourth), A(fifth), C(fifth), P(ninth), 046(tenth), 051(tenth), 052(tenth), 0163(fifth), 0169(fourth), 0207(fourth), 0229(eighth), 1006(eleventh), 1611(twelfth), 1841(ninth/tenth), 1854(eleventh), 2030(twelfth), 2050(1107), 2053(thirteenth), 2062(thirteenth), 2329(tenth), 2344(eleventh), 2351(tenth/eleventh), 2377(fourteenth).

  Rev.1:11 is supported by Aleph, A, C, 1006, 1841, 2050, 2329, 2351 as well as the Old Latin, Syriac and Sahidic versions. Edited to confirm that "Alpha and Omega" in Rev.1:11 has no uncial support.

  Phew! Hope that sets you in the right direction.

  Earnest

  Edited by - Earnest on 18 June 2002 23:27:12
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  NewWay

  I THOUGHT THIS INTERNET WEB PAGE ARTICLE MIGHT HELP:

  Identity of the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13)

  I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. (New Jerusalem Bible)

  Then he said to me, It has already happened. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give water from the well of life free to anybody who is thirsty. (New Jerusalem Bible)

  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (New Jerusalem Bible)
  
  The person referred to as "the Alpha and the Omega" first introduced at Revelation 1:8, can be properly identified in the light of what verses 4 and 5 say. In John's greeting to the seven churches of Asia, he brings "grace and peace" from: (a) him who is, who was, and who is to come ("and from" - Greek = "kai apo") (b) the seven spirits who are before his throne ("and from" - Greek = "kai apo") (c) Jesus Christ. In verse 8, the "Alpha and the Omega" is identified as being "the Lord God" ("kurios ho theos", not simply "Lord") "who is, who was, and who is to come", "the Almighty." Therefore "the Alpha and the Omega" is not (c), but (a). According to verse 5 of chapter 21, the Alpha and Omega is the one who is sitting on the throne. Chapter 7, verse 10, identifies this one as being God (see also Revelation 19:4). The Lamb of the vision represents Jesus Christ, who at one point takes a scroll from the one sitting on the throne (Revelation 5:7). So, Jesus Christ is not to be identified as being the same one as he who sits on the throne (i.e. God). Revelation 22:13 references the Alpha and Omega, but it is not clear from the original language text who is actually speaking. Quotation marks were not a feature of ancient Greek, hence the problem in designating a speaker. The translators of the New Jerusalem Bible made a decision to attribute the words to the angel who had been speaking with John. Other translations make no distinction, but indicate that there is a change in speaker with new quotation marks. On the basis of the observations made concerning the two previous references to the Alpha and Omega, there is no need to attribute the originator of these words to anyone other than Almighty God, even if the angel did speak the words. The opening words of the book of Revelation make clear that the vision originated with God, was given by him to Jesus Christ, who in turn sent an angel to present it to John. (Copying/Printing/Distribution - I'm happy for readers to make copies of this article in electronic/printed form as long as the whole article (including footnotes and any notices) is reproduced and not used as part of a commercial project. Web site address is http://www.semachiah.fsnet.co.uk )
• 

  BugParadise

  It's not quite clear to me whether your interest is in Rev.1:11 or the entire book of Revelation. But in general the textual support comes from p18(third/fourth century), p24(fourth), p43(sixth/seventh), p47(third), p85(fourth/fifth) Aleph(fourth), A(fifth), C(fifth), P(ninth), 046(tenth), 051(tenth), 052(tenth), 0163(fifth), 0169(fourth), 0207(fourth), 0229(eighth), 1006(eleventh), 1611(twelfth), 1841(ninth/tenth), 1854(eleventh), 2030(twelfth), 2050(1107), 2053(thirteenth), 2062(thirteenth), 2329(tenth), 2344(eleventh), 2351(tenth/eleventh), 2377(fourteenth).

  Rev.1:11 is supported by Aleph, A, C, 1006, 1841, 2050, 2329, 2351 as well as the Old Latin, Syriac and Sahidic versions. Edited to confirm that "Alpha and Omega" in Rev.1:11 has no uncial support.

  Phew! Hope that sets you in the right direction.

  Earnest

  Thank-you very much Earnest! This information will be very helpful... I love investigating into the manuscripts and the evidence for them. Sorry I didn't back to you sooner to thank you for the indepth response. Have you done any study into the opposing material for manuscripts Aleph, C, etc?

  Thanks again!

  ~Bugs
• 

  Earnest

  Hi Bugs,

  I got interested in textual criticism when I first obtained Bruce Metzger's book "The Text of the New Testament" about twenty years ago. The 'Great Disappointment' of 1975 inclined me to pursue those fields of study which required less interpretation like textual criticism and biblical archaeology. It is a fascinating field although not entirely without speculation.

  A bit more information about the extant texts containing all or part of Revelation for your enjoyment:

  p18(third/fourth century), Revelation 1:4-7
  Located at London: British Library, Inv no. 2053v.
  Further information:
  Ellwood M.Schofield, "The Papyrus Fragments of the Greek New Testament" (diss.,Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, 1936, pp.182-85).
  B.P.Grenfell and A.S.Hunt, Oxyrhynchus Papyri VIII (1911), pp.13-14.
  Text repeated in C.Wessely, "Les Plus Anciens Monuments du Christianisme ecrits sur papyrus", in "Patrologia orientalis", vol XVIII, 3 (Paris, 1924, pp.465ff).
  Text repeated in R.H.Charles, "Revelation of St John", International Critical Commentary, vol.II (Edinburgh,1920), pp.447-9.

  p24(fourth), Revelation 5:5-8; 6:5-8
  Located at Newton Centre: Andover Newton Theolgical School, Franklin Trask Library, Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1230.
  Further information:
  Ellwood M.Schofield, "The Papyrus Fragments of the Greek New Testament" (diss.,Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, 1936, pp.203-205).
  B.P.Grenfell and A.S.Hunt, Oxyrhynchus Papyri X (1914), pp.16-18 (P.Oxy. 1230).
  Text repeated in C.Wessely, "Les Plus Anciens Monuments du Christianisme ecrits sur papyrus", in "Patrologia orientalis", vol XVIII, 3 (Paris, 1924, pp.465ff).
  Text repeated in R.H.Charles, "Revelation of St John", International Critical Commentary, vol.II (Edinburgh,1920), pp.448-50.

  p43(sixth/seventh), Revelation 2:12-13; 15:8-16:2
  Located at London: British Library, Inv no. 2241.
  Further information:
  Ellwood M.Schofield, "The Papyrus Fragments of the Greek New Testament" (diss.,Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, 1936, pp.292-95).
  Walter Ewing Crum and Harold Idri Bell, Coptica III, "Wadi Sarga: Coptic and Greek Texts from the Excavations Undertaken by the Byzantine Research Account" (Copenhagen, 1922, pp.43-51).
  
  p47(third), Revelation 9:10-17:2
  Located at Dublin: P. Chester Beatty III.
  Further information:
  Frederic G.Kenyon, "The Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri III/1: Pauline Epistles and Revelation, Text" (London: text(1934); III/2: "Revelation, Plates"(London: 1936)).

  p85(fourth/fifth), Revelation 9:19-10:2,5-9
  Located at Strasbourg: Bibliotheque Nationale et Universitaire, P.Gr. 1028.
  Further information:
  J.Schwartz, "Papyrus et tradition manuscrite", Zeitschrift fur Papyrologie und Epigraphik 4 (Bonn, 1969, 178-182).

  Aleph(fourth)
  Located at London: British Library, Add. 43725.

  A(fifth)
  Located at London: British Library, Royal 1 D.VIII.

  C(fifth)
  Located at Paris: Bibliotheque Nationale, Gr. 9.

  P(ninth), codex Porphyrianus
  Located at Leningrad:Public Library, Gr. 225.
  Further information:
  C.Tischendorf, Monumenta sacra inedita V, pp.1ff. and VI,pp.1ff.
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, p.7).
  Kurt Treu, "Die Griechischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments in der UdSR; eine systematische Auswertung de Texthandschriften in Leningrad, Moskau, Kiev, Odessa, Tbilisi und Erevan", T&U91 (Berlin, 1966, pp.101-4).

  046(tenth)
  Located at Rome: Vatican Library, Gr. 2066.
  Further information:
  Decribed with reproductions by S.P.Tregelles, "An Account of the Printed Text" (London, 1854, pp.156ff).
  C.Tischendorf, Monumenta sacra inedita (1846, pp.407ff. and plate III, no.9).
  C.Tischendorf, Monumenta sacra inedita ("Appendix Novi Testamenti Vaticani", Leipzig, 1869, pp.iiiff. and 1ff).

  051(tenth), Revelation 11-22
  Located at Athos: Pantokratoros 44.
  Further information:
  C.R.Gregory, Textkritik des Neuen Testamentes III, pp.1042-6.
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.2-4).

  052(tenth), Revelation 7:16-8:12
  Located at Athos: Panteleimonos 99,2.
  Further information:
  C.R.Gregory, Textkritik des Neuen Testamentes III, pp.1046f.
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, p.5).

  0163(fifth), Revelation 16:17-20
  Located at Chicago: University of Chicago, Oriental Institute, 9351 (P.Oxy.848).
  Further information:
  B.P.Grenfell and A.S.Hunt, Oxyrhynchus Papyri VI, p.6 and plate I.
  Text repeated in R.H.Charles, "Revelation of St John", International Critical Commentary, vol.II (Edinburgh,1920), pp.449-51.
  K.W.Clark, "A Descriptive Catalgue of Greek New Testament Manuscripts in America", Chicago, 1937, p.273.

  0169(fourth), Revelation 3:19-4:3
  Located at Princeton: Theological Seminary, Pap.5 (P.Oxy.1080).
  Further information:
  B.P.Grenfell and A.S.Hunt, Oxyrhynchus Papyri VIII, pp.14f.
  Text repeated in R.H.Charles, "Revelation of St John", International Critical Commentary, vol.II (Edinburgh,1920), pp.448-50.
  K.W.Clark, "A Descriptive Catalgue of Greek New Testament Manuscripts in America", Chicago, 1937, p.177.

  0207(fourth), Revelation 9:2-15
  Located at Florence: Biblioteca Laurenziana, PSI 1166.
  Further information:
  M.-J. Lagrange, Critique textuelle II, La Critique rationelle (Paris, 1935, pp.585-6).
  J.Schmid, "Der Apokalypsetext des Kodex 0207 (Papiri della Societa Italiana 1166)", Biblische Zeitchrift 23 (1935/36, 187-9).
  G.Vitelli and G.Mercati, Pubblicazioni della Societa Italiana (Papiri Greci et Latini) vol.10, pp.112-20 (see also M.Naldini, "Documenti dell'Antichita Cristiana", 2nd edn. (Florence, 1965, no.22 and plate).

  0229(eighth), Revelation 18:16-17; 19:4-6
  Formerly located at Florence: Biblioteca Laurenziana, PSI 1296b.
  Further information:
  G.Mercati, Pubblicazioni della Societa Italiana (Papiri Greci et Latini) vol.13, pp.1,8-11 and plate 1 (see also I.Crisci, "La Collezione dei Papiri di Firenze", in "Proceedings of the XII Congress of Papyrology" (Toronto, 1970), pp.89-95, esp. p.93; and M.Naldini, "Documenti dell'Antichita Cristiana", 2nd edn. (Florence, 1965, no.23 and plate).

  1006(eleventh)
  Located at Athos: Iviron, (56) 728.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, p.688ff).

  1611(twelfth)
  Located at Athens: National Library, 94.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.356-65).
  B.Aland (ed.), Das Neue Testament in syrischer Uberlieferung:I Die Grossen Katholichen Briefe, Arbeiten zur neutestamentlichen Textforschung VII (Berlin/New York, 1986).

  1841(ninth/tenth)
  Located at Lesbos: Limonos, 55.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.435ff).

  1854(eleventh)
  Located at Athos: Iviron, (25) 231.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, "Manuscripts of the Apocalypse - Recent Investigations IV", reprint from Bulletin of the John Rylands Library (1924, vol.8, p.1-40 and 2 plates).
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.442-56).

  2030(twelfth)
  Located at Mocow: University, 2.
  Further information:
  Kurt Treu, "Die Griechischen Handschriften des Neuen Testaments in der UdSR; eine systematische Auswertung de Texthandschriften in Leningrad, Moskau, Kiev, Odessa, Tbilisi und Erevan", T&U91 (Berlin, 1966, pp.331-2).
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.209ff).

  2050(1107)
  Located at Escorial: X, III, 6.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, 'Manuscripts of the Apocalypse - Recent Investigations III', reprint from Bulletin of the John Rylands Library (1923, vol.7, pt3 and 1 facsimile).
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.480-8).

  2053(thirteenth)
  Located at Messina: Biblioteca Universitario, 99.
  Further information:
  Hermann von Soden, "Der Apokalype Text in dem Kommentar-Codex Messina 99", American Journal of Philology (Baltimore, 1914, vol.35, 179-91).
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.494-505).
  Plates: K.Aland and B.Aland, Der Text des Neuen Testaments n.55 (Stuttgart, 1982; ET Grand Rapids, 1986).

  2062(thirteenth)
  Located at Rome: Vatican Library, Gr.1426.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.527ff).

  2329(tenth)
  Located at Meteora: Metamorphosis, 573, ff.210-245r.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, 'Manuscripts of the Apocalypse - Recent Investigations I', reprint from Bulletin of the John Rylands Library (1922, vol.6, p.1-20 and facsimiles).
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.637-52).
  N.A.Beis, "Die Kollation der Apokalypse Johannis mit dem Kodex 573 des Meteora Klosters", Zeitschrift fur die neutestamentliche Wissenschaft (Berlin, 1912, vol.13, pp.260-5).

  2344(eleventh)
  Located at Paris: Bibliotheque Nationale, Coislin Gr.18.
  Further information:
  Collated by J.Schmid, "Unbeachtete Apokalypse-Handchriften", Theologische Quartalschrift (Tubingen, 1939, vol.120, pp.154-87).
  New collation in M.Davies, "The Text of the Pauline Epistles in Manucript 2344 and its Relationship to the Text of other Known Manuscripts in Particular to 330, 436 and 462", Studies and Documents XXXVIII (Salt Lake City, 1968).
  Plates: K.Aland and B.Aland, Der Text des Neuen Testaments n.56 (Stuttgart, 1982; ET Grand Rapids, 1986).

  2351(tenth/eleventh)
  Located at Meteora: Metamorphosis, 573, ff.245v-290.
  Further information:
  H.C.Hoskier, "Manuscripts of the Apocalypse - Recent Investigations II", reprint from Bulletin of the John Rylands Library,(1923, vol.7, pt2., p.1-12).
  H.C.Hoskier, "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse", (London, 1929, vol.1, pp.653-62).

  2377(fourteenth)
  Located at Athens: Byzantine Museum, 117.

  Must catch some sleep now. Enjoy yourself.

  Earnest
• 

  Robert_V_Frazier

  BugParadise wrote:

  I love investigating into the manuscripts and the evidence for them.

  There's two books you need to read if you're interested in this subject:

  The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration by Bruce Manning Metzger

  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195072979/qid=1024960424/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8434572-3209745

  The Text of the New Testament: an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism
  		
  by Kurt Aland, Barbara Aland

  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802840981/qid=1024960470/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8434572-3209745

  Neither is at all light reading, but they're worth the work.

  Robert V. Frazier

  Edited by - robert_v_frazier on 24 June 2002 19:21:6
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  BugParadise

  Earnest and Robert

  Wow! Thanks for all that information! I appreciate you talking the time to post all that!

  ~Bugs
• 

  Earnest

  Further information on the origins of "Alpha and Omega" in this verse has been included on another thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=30690&page=1&site=3#525986).

  Earnest