Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cedars
    cedars

    Cold Steel

    Those two videos are not an answer to my question. The first video is an anal discussion speculating what a missing part of a papyrus may or may not have portrayed, and wrongly assumes that Abraham must be one of the figures depicted on the papyrus with absolutely no supporting evidence.

    The second video attempts to refute any scholarly questions regarding the book of Abraham by painting scholarly treatments on the subject as transitory and subject to change. Mormon "experts" are wheeled in to impress us with their background and reassure us that everything's legit. It's all unnervingly similar to the kind of reasoning employed by Watchtower in trying to defend its 607 BCE date for the destruction of Jerusalem. "None of us were there at the time, so who can really say? There's no evidence that it DIDN'T happen. Therefore, it must have happened the way we say it did."

    If I were a Mormon and I was presented with clear evidence that Joseph Smith misrepresented run-of-the-mill Egyptian funeral documents as being a missing book about Abraham, that would cause me to question not only the man himself but everything else he claimed to pen under 'inspiration.'

    The man was clearly a fraud and a charlatan. It's a shame you can't see it.

    Cedars

  • return of parakeet
    return of parakeet

    Cold Steel: " Without a God it’s already thrown away. The second you’re dead, everything ceases to exist from your standpoint. Everything you experienced, everything you learned, thought about or attained to comes to absolutely nothing. All the enjoyment you gleaned from life, all the despair, achievements, wisdom—everything—is meaningless. "

    I have no problem with "meaninglessness." I invest my own meaning into my own life. When I'm gone, "nothingness" is what I expect; I don't fear it. The highest honor I aspire to is Matthew Arnold's standard -- that I "saw life steadily and saw it whole."

    I am truly unable to understand why anyone needs more than that. Are you that afraid of death, CS, that you must believe in something more?

    "The free-thinking of one age is the common sense of the next."

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    CS: "First, Billy, I'm still waiting for someone to detail all the similarities. I've documented just how different we are. Have you read my posts?"

    I'm not interested in your religion, so I have no reason to read your posts.

    Have a nice day.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    There are similarities between the two religions, you can hardly deny that. They both were started in the 19th century by charismatic leaders. Both reject trinity, and believe in proselytizing. Both strongly encourage strict Christian values, and forbid homosexuality and sex outside of marriage. The differences in doctrine are just bells and whistles, the culture is quite similar.

    I simply could never believe in the preposterous tales of Joseph Smith. Golden tablets and speaking salamanders? Revelations from God that a married man can boink a sixteen year old girl? What seemed incredible and amazing back then just doesn't hold up under scrutiny and in this time with all the evidence we have. I can not take seriously a religion that has people wearing magical underwear with symbols on them. Having left the dubs and learning about how much of it was hogwash and lies, there is no way I would be able to suspend my disbelief enough to go to another high control religion.

    I am glad you found something that floats your boat, but if you are hoping to recruit people here to the Mormons you are wasting your time. Once burned twice shy and all that.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Those two videos are not an answer to my question. ... If I were a Mormon and I was presented with clear evidence that Joseph Smith misrepresented run-of-the-mill Egyptian funeral documents as being a missing book about Abraham, that would cause me to question not only the man himself but everything else he claimed to pen under ‘inspiration.’

    And if I were presented with clear evidence that Joseph Smith was inspired in everything else he produced and prophesied, and that there were unanswered issues with just one of them, it would cause me to think there were probably good answers to them.

    As you undoubtedly failed to read in my previous post, some LDS explorers traced Nephi’s directions from Jerusalem to their first campsite three days away. Years ago when I first joined the church, I had people wave that part of the Book of Mormon under my nose and say, “Where’s that ‘river of water’ Nephi talks about? There are no such rivers in that part of Arabia!” Many of them also asked disdainfully where there was a place anywhere in the desert where Nephi could have built a ship from trees, without tools in a place with grains, fruits, ore and a harbor. At the time, I couldn’t answer any of those questions. I was completely clueless.

    Now those questions are no longer issues. If Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he managed to make some fabulous guesses and he knew about the Frankincense Trail that led from Jerusalem to Oman to Khor Rori. It appears to be, except for one city in the south, the exact route that Lehi and his family took when they left Jerusalem.

    If the Book of Mormon were a hoax, it would be less plausible in each succeeding year. And while there are still unanswered questions about the geography of the record, primarily in the Western Hemisphere, it becomes more plausible each year, not less.

    Regarding the Book of Abraham, there are two aspects of judging it. First, there’s the means of transmission (like the gold plates of the Book of Mormon). Second, there’s the content, not only stylistically but what the document states. The two videos I listed isn’t all we have by a long shot; it’s only the tip of the iceberg. Some other papers follow.

    The one area the critics don’t seem to want to talk about is content. After telling us there’s absolutely no connection between our Book of the Dead and Abraham, a very similar facsimile to ours was found of a man lying on a lion couch. Underneath it, the name “Abraham” was scrawled on the papyrus.

    A lion couch scene appears in Leiden Papyrus I 384 (PGM xii).
    The outline marks Abraham’s name, written in Greek. (Courtesy
    of Rijksmuseum van Oudheden.) Critics claim that Abraham
    would never be associated with the Egyptian "lion couch"
    scene. Recently, however Abraham's name has indeed been
    discovered associated with one such "lion couch" scene. See
    Research & Perspectives: Abraham in Ancient Egyptian Texts.

    Papers of interest may include:

    Regarding content, our Book of Abraham fits in well with other extrabiblical texts attributed to Abraham. Joseph Smith had access to none of them, and yet they have numerous parallels that go beyond just chance (at least in my view). Such parallels involve a premortal council of spirits, the choosing and ordaining of the rulers and great ones, idolatry, human sacrifice, priesthood, revelation, Pharaoh, and famine.

    For example, a simple parallel between the Apocalypse of Abraham and our Book of Abraham:

    Jeremiah writes: Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and
    before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
    (Jeremiah 1:5)
    This concept is not new; however, a primordial council involving the spirits of everyone who later was born on the earth
    is a recognized ancient Hebrew tradition. It's a hot topic among scholars who call it the "Divine Council."

    The Book of Abraham is about Abraham's deliverance from a ritual sacrifice and his calling as a prophet of God. Many of the apocryphal books attributed to Abraham involve such sacrifices. It's also at the heart of the Book of Abraham debate.

    Bottom line, you're too willing to listen to one side of the story. I predict time will be on our side.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Cold Steel

    Years ago when I first joined the church, I had people wave that part of the Book of Mormon under my nose and say, “Where’s that ‘river of water’ Nephi talks about? There are no such rivers in that part of Arabia!”

    Yes, I am familiar with the "evidence" of which you speak.

    However, the fact that Joseph Smith correctly guessed that there was a place in Arabia with trees and a river does not make him an inspired prophet, just an accomplished gambler.

    Cedars

  • cedars
    cedars

    Cold Steel

    If the Book of Mormon were a hoax, it would be less plausible in each succeeding year. And while there are still unanswered questions about the geography of the record, primarily in the Western Hemisphere, it becomes more plausible each year, not less.

    Is that a reference to the fact that there is not one iota of archeological evidence that an ancient Jewish civilization once thrived in North America?

    Cedars

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Ok - here :S

    Everyone knows why they are right, everyone knows what proves their viewpoint, a particular problem of faith based beliefs however, is that very few know what would disprove that belief.

    As a mormon I loved the church, it was fantastic. I was glad that I had a progressive worldview that was welcoming of science (indeed welcoming of all truth) and instead of feeling threatened by the success of other churches, worldviews or non-mormons I, and my church, had a very broad view (god gives light and knowledge to all his children.) To be a mormon was not to take away from others beliefs, it was to offer them additional info they hadn't come across before. As a missionary I wasn't converting people away from say catholicism I was acknowledging how important that organisation had been as a way for god to teach them things and was offering them the next stage, I offerred Catholicism upgraded, Bhuddism upgraded, Humanism upgraded etc. All along I welcomed information because I was so certain that we had the facts, we had real truth , we had an actual prophet and this was the only church actually managed and set up directly by Jesus.

    That which I described above is what brainwashing does. From my earliest memory I was singing 'Follow the Prophet', I was given 'historical' reading books on the Book of Mormon,I was attending impresive media productions on South American archaelogy that proved the BoM and so on. I didn't so much as find my testimony (though at 14 I did have an incredible experience) as have it layered into my psyche day in and day out. My weekly schedule (prior to the consolidated meeting schedule) was :

    Sunday morning Sacrament meeting, meal at church or church members house, Sunday Afternoon Priesthood/relief Society Meetings, Sunday Evening Fireside, Monday night Family Home Evening (Lesson, songs and - normally edible - treat) , Tuesday Adults meetings at church for various auxiliaries (so Mum was on Young Women's Presidency so I ended up wandering church corridors), Wednesday MIA (church members mixed adults and kids activity night), Thursday night Sunday School, Friday night church sports / fireside / special activity, Saturday infrequent Stake/ Regional activities like sports events, Roadshows, Bring and Buy sales etc. In short my entire life outside of school was church related. Don't get me wrong, I loved it, but I was not exposed to any other influences nor was I ever taught how to think, everything was a black and white absolute of what to think.

    The bookshelves of our home were loaded with church materials, my weekly 'comic' was the church publication 'The Friend' and then as I got older 'The New Era' filled with faith promoting stories, puzzles about the BoM and information on prominent church members or high achievers. On top of that we had missionaries over at our house regularly for meals and to teach people (female missionaries, my mum was single so males not allowed!)

    This is what brainwashing is, this is what a cult does, this is what makes it so hard to freely think and evaluate. I have pondered long and hard about why I didn't see the problems, why I couldn't perceive the logical mistakes. The only conclusion I have is brainwashing. A person wearing blue shade glasses indeed sees the world as blue but the glasses must be removed in order to see that the world isn't all blue. I had to take off the glasses before I could recognise that the church was NOT true. Until that time every tiny bit of information (like that presented by Cold Steel) seemed like the most incredible proof and every negative bit of information was brushed aside with barely a flicker of recognition.

    Only when you know what would invalidate your belief are you able to evaluate it - otherwise you are simply rote learning.

    * No miracle stories of Mormonism happened as described in church lesson literature (Checked with primary sources.)

    * No prophecies of Mormonism with general application have ever happened (Check them all!). Many personal prophecies were either easily fulfilled (you will go on a mission - said by the person who can send them on one - or you will have a child (doh - most people do) and so on) or simply forgotten and brushed aside when they didn't occur.

    * No archaeology agrees with Mormon claims and almost all directly contradicts it (DNA proves no American Indian ancestry from Middle East, no animals of types mentioned in BoM native to Americas, No evidence of million man battles or sprawling huge civilisations matching BoM civilisations, flora and fauna not native to SA mentioned, native flora and fauna not mentioned and incorrect or anachronous technology such as glass windows, chariots, steel, concrete, silk etc.

    * BoM contains various source material available to Joseph Smith and indicating human origin (Map of Cumoros Island with capital Moroni - key names in BoM, many names of places lifted from local towns, Indian place names and geographical regions, Swedenborgian spiritual philosophy, superstition and magic elements - treasure digging, seerstones, divining rods, rituals to collect buried artefacts, masonry, direct lifts from several books of the day (I can provide several hundred direct and paraphrased quotes from books of the day if needed - mind boggling) most notably the bible (lifts including known errors and puzzlingly things he corrected in his later bible 'translation'.)

    * Joseph made several translation claims that failed (Greek Psalter, Kinderhook Plates and now we have a fragment of the original Book of Abraham papyrus, the Book of Abraham)

    * Joseph committed several horrendous social abuses (cornering married and single women in back rooms, telling them that an angel had commanded them to marry him, if they would submit they and several generations would be guaranteed Celestialisation and if they rejected him they and those same generations would damned ), he had an affair with a 14 year old (culturally not that 'bad' but still unacceptable), he set himself up as the seller of property in each new territory he founded (so he always could make money), he set up a fraudulent bank and fleeced many members (the primary reason for a vast apostacy in the early days of the church), he made up doctrine on the fly to suit (Word of Wisdom to placate his wife and containing the instruction to drink beer but not spirits - unlike our latest incarnation of it, Celestial marriage and the whole temple to hide his affairs and so on.)

    In the broad light of day only brainwashing can lead a sane, rational adult to accept this whole rotten lie. Even though the modern day church is very different now its history is mired in awfulness (Utah under Brigham Young was a terrible place where people disappeared, women lived under absolute male rule, polgamy plagued the people and saw old men picking and choosing young wives at will, castrations of men who wouldn't give up wives etc.) No matter how many flashy ads the LDS church puts out it will not beat its history and the internet.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Glad to have you join in Qcmbr as JWN's resident Mormon apostate. Better late than never!

    I would just like to temper my previous comments with the acknowledgment that, through my limited research, Mormonism strikes me as a religion with teachings that are less directly harmful to its adherents than JWs (i.e. no ban on blood transfusions, shunning admonition is less overt).

    Even so, Mormonism manifests many if not all of the attributes of a cult, and some of its teachings stretch credulity even more so than Watchtower's twisted doctrines. (Hence my attempts to get Cold Steel to grapple with the outside world's acknowledgment of Joseph Smith's charlatanry.)

    Cedars

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Jesus also wrestled with his critics and so must his servants do likewise. The day will come, sooner or later, when everyone will know who the servants of Christ are, and those who aren't.

    • No miracle stories of Mormonism happened as described in church lesson literature (Checked with primary sources.)

    This is a blanket statement, and a bold one, too. Of course, atheists don’t believe that any miracles happened as described in the New Testament, either. But how would they know? To them, Jesus wasn’t born of a virgin, there were no appearances of Gabriel, Jesus didn’t change water into wine, did not heal people, did not see Moses and Elias on the mount of transfiguration and was most definitely not resurrected following his death. He also did not show himself for 40 days afterwards.

    • No prophecies of Mormonism with general application have ever happened (Check them all!). Many personal prophecies were either easily fulfilled (you will go on a mission—said by the person who can send them on one - or you will have a child (doh - most people do) and so on) or simply forgotten and brushed aside when they didn't occur.

    None of the prophecies? How about the prophecy on war, which foretold the great Civil War and the wars which would follow? Every aspect of that prophecy was fulfilled, including the part that read, “and after that, war will be poured out on all nations.” Prior to the first and second world wars, world wars were unknown. As for births and so forth, again, you don’t know whereof you speak. Parley P. Pratt’s wife couldn’t bear children, but she was given a blessing and had a child. There were numerous such prophecies and blessings. But since there’s no God, there are no prophecies, and no miraculous healings.

    But perhaps the greatest prophecies that came to pass of a “general application” were those in the Book of Mormon. If it was a hoax and a fraud, then Joseph Smith must have been making all those prophecies about himself. And making prophecies in 1830 and then fulfilling them are two very different things. In short, they were very ambitious prophecies and there were hundreds of ways for them to be frustrated. And in 1836, Moses appeared in the Kirtland Temple and conferred upon Smith and Oliver Cowdery the authoritative priesthood keys for the gathering of Judah to the lands of its inheritance. In the 1840s, apostle Orson Hyde was sent to the Holy Land to exercise those keys and start the Jews returning to Jerusalem and surrounding lands. Then, in the 1870s, the Jews began migrating to Israel in increasing numbers, due in large part not only to Elder Hyde, but Theodor Herschel, the “first” Zionist. Again, after nearly two thousand years of the Diaspora, or dispersion, the Jews fulfilled prophecy. There are so many prophecies that were made, not only by Smith, but by other apostles and prophets, that it illustrates that Joseph Smith was by no means a one-man band.

    The Jehovah's Witnesses had determined by their earliest beginnings that Judah was never going to be restored to the lands of its inheritance. So they did some quick rewriting and discovered that they, as “spiritual Israel,” were the ones who were to be gathered. And it wasn’t Judah, but they, who would be attacked in the Battle of Armageddon.

    Isaiah writes concerning the gathering of Judah and a latter-day prophet who would be an ensign to the gentiles and would gather the Jews:

    And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.... And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isa. 11:11-12)

    This is one of the scriptures that Moroni quoted to Joseph Smith when he appeared to him that night in his room. Later revelations also indicate that Smith is the fulfillment of this “root of Jesse” prophecy, and that he was a descendent of David, through Jesse. As far as I know, he’s the only claimant to the title, and since Judah is being restored to their lands and the times of the gentiles are in full sway, if it’s not Joseph Smith, then who is this root of Jesse? Again, there are numerous prophecies that were fulfilled, including the saints going on to gather in the Rocky Mountains. So your claim is simply untrue.

    • No archaeology agrees with Mormon claims and almost all directly contradicts it (DNA proves no American Indian ancestry from Middle East, no animals of types mentioned in BoM native to Americas, No evidence of million man battles or sprawling huge civilisations matching BoM civilisations, flora and fauna not native to SA mentioned, native flora and fauna not mentioned and incorrect or anachronous technology such as glass windows, chariots, steel, concrete, silk etc.

    Again, completely wrong. You just haven’t read the historic records and most recent developments in the Mesoamerican research projects now underway. Recent evidence even suggests the existence of pre-Columbian horses. I’ve been to Mexico and have stood on large, flat cement streets and been in cement buildings. I don’t know of any “glass windows” mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and the only one I know who’s made that charge is Walter Martin, so you’re betraying your sources. Recent DNA research in Mesoamerica has even suggested Middle East origins. I suggest you keep current on the research and to stop trying to force round pegs into square holes.

    • BoM contains various source material available to Joseph Smith and indicating human origin (Map of Cumoros Island with capital Moroni—key names in BoM, many names of places lifted from local towns, Indian place names and geographical regions, Swedenborgian spiritual philosophy, superstition and magic elements—treasure digging, seerstones, divining rods, rituals to collect buried artifacts, masonry, direct lifts from several books of the day (I can provide several hundred direct and paraphrased quotes from books of the day if needed—mind boggling) most notably the bible (lifts including known errors and puzzlingly things he corrected in his later bible 'translation'.)

    It’s ironic that you bring up the Comoros (not “Cumoros”) Islands’ names when you completely discount Nahom being in the exact area Nephi said it was and that it was a burial site, when Nephi said it was where they buried Ishmael. (It wasn’t discovered to be a burial place until the mid-90s). You also discount the other numerous instances where Nephi’s account is meticulously correct, when there was no way he could have known about it in 1830. And, BTW, this is almost zero chance that Joseph Smith could have known about those island names. Moroni (pronounced Muruni) did not become the capital of the islands until 1876 and many maps of Joseph Smith’s day didn’t even show Comoros on maps, whether in the U.S. or Europe. And those that did didn’t even show Moroni!)

    • Joseph made several translation claims that failed (Greek Psalter, Kinderhook Plates and now we have a fragment of the original Book of Abraham papyrus, the Book of Abraham)

    I’ve already gone into the Book of Abraham in some detail, and as far as the Kinderhook Plates are concerned, Joseph Smith left no written claims about them, nor did he attempt to produce a “translation.” In fact, he showed almost no interest in them whatsoever. But this was not the case with the Book of Abraham papyrus. For more info on these items, see this apologetic review.

    • Joseph committed several horrendous social abuses (cornering married and single women in back rooms, telling them that an angel had commanded them to marry him, if they would submit they and several generations would be guaranteed Celestialisation and if they rejected him they and those same generations would damned ), he had an affair with a 14 year old (culturally not that 'bad' but still unacceptable)....

    It would be impossible for Joseph Smith to be both a prophet and a reprobate. We also know the least of these issues than any other in Smith’s ministry. The infamous 14-year old was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Elder Heber J. Grant, one of Mormonism’s most gifted prophets. In LDS doctrine, people are bound by families throughout the eternities. Elder Kimball very much wanted his family to be bound to Smith’s family in the world to come. The only way this could happen is that his daughter be sealed to Joseph Smith. Helen was thus sealed to Smith and resided in the room above the printing office. There is NO evidence that Joseph ever considered this anything more than a familial bond, and there is no evidence it was ever consummated.

    Helen lived to be a ripe old age in Utah and wrote a book about her father and her life. She never indicated that anything improper or untoward ever happened between her and Joseph.

    There was also the case in which Elder Hyde made a long, arduous journey to the Holy Land to dedicate it for the return of the Jews. Just before he left, his wife married Joseph and was cared for by him in his absence. Upon his return, months later, his wife remarried him and later bore Elder Hyde a son. The bottom line, is that we can’t depend on the church’s enemies to give us detailed information regarding Smith’s alleged infidelities.

    It was Brigham Young who stated, “ Every time you kick Mormonism you kick it upstairs; you never kick it downstairs. The Lord Almighty so orders it.”

    Instead of only reading anti-Mormon sites, try reading the other side.

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