Atheism or Agnosticism, which one is correct?

by Joey Jo-Jo 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cyberjesus

  No Atheist claim that God does not exist.... thats just plain shtupid..... Atheist just dont have a deity... PERIOD!!!!!! god damned it! Thats all. Someone who claims that God does not exist is just an ignorant impulsive irreflexible statement sayer :-)

  Not everyone who call himself an Atheist might be one... the same as not everybody who claims to be a christian is.

  Joey why dont you read ZEUS post... thats as simple as it could be.

  By they way by posting the 20 something different definition of Agnostic you make it even more difficult to answer you own question ergo defining your own position.

  ITs your freaking question, therefore its your freaking position. therefore define how you define agnostic and then based on your definition WE could acomodate to your definition and answer your question...
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  cyberjesus

  JOEY: Is Santa Red or invisible?

  BOHM: how do you define invisible?

  JOEY: Definitions of invisible 1) not existent 2) Translucid 3) Transparent) 4) Not present 5) all of the above 6) NOne of the above

  Bohm: but what is your definition?

  JOEY: I dont know he doesnt exist. But you guys are certain he doesnt

  Bohm: But that was not your question

  JOEY: oh thats a fallacy

  ME: Oh brother! whatever
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  cyberjesus

  When I left the borg. I questioned a Gilleadgraduate what he believed and he told me he rather wouldnt say cuz I would probably feel bad. I asked him again and told him I would take it... he said you are not gonna like it... I am an atheist....

  He was right I didnt like it. I thought the same most believers think of atheists.. oh he is just confused, mad at God, crazy, etc etc etc.

  So I kept looking. However I did asked him why. I came to this forum and presented my questions.... as down as I was... the classic ones. What about the eye, the thumb, the universet, the laws.. etc etc.etc the tse tse fly whatever.

  I went from being a believer to an agnostic in 3 days..... then I posted my position and read more about what an agnostic claims ..... and I realize that I wasnt an agnostic (Thank God). I aint no pussy.. :-) no offense. I dont have a deity anymore... therefore in one day I switched bands :-)

  Anyway I just thought of sharing....
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  Joey Jo-Jo

  ZeusRocks wrote If someone asks you if you believe in god or a god, and your answer is no, then you are atheist. You cannot answer this question with "I don't know". You weren't asked whether you know a god exists or not, the question is whether you believe a god exists.

  and

  but if someone asks you if you believe in god, you cannot state that you are agnostic as that has nothing to do with the question being asked.

  So by your logic, if I asked you - Have you stopped beating your wife? you could only give me a yes or no answer, keeping in mind that both answers will incriminate you. ;) You might want to google plurium interrogationum.
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  Caedes

  There are many varying definitions of atheist and agnostic so it makes sense to state your definitions before you start. I wouldn't wish to be confined by someone elses definition.

  I (like everyone else on the planet) cannot empirically prove that any god does or does not exist, by this definition I call myself (and everyone else) an agnostic. In my opinion the lack of empirical evidence means that I can lump god(s) in with the supernatural and reject it out of hand, by this definition I would call myself an atheist.

  If other people wish to define agnostic and atheist in a different way then it is important to agree on definitions before you can have a discussion. I don't see that having differing definitions for labels we use for ourselves is a problem, I am sure others would not want to use my definitions since they would probably feel painted into a corner. Decide for yourself what your atheism, theism or agnosticism means.
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  Joey Jo-Jo

  This is what Richard Dawkins has to say about agnostics, skip to 14:00

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTz0mc0MRlY&list=FLR1k0ksLME_RHblIEG_EiGg&index=1&feature=plpp_video
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  bohm

  double post.
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  bohm

  Jo-Jo:

  my definition of a possible deity is vague because i dont know, this to you is evidence that deities do not exist, am i correct?

  ofcourse not. My point was simply that if i am to answer the question, "does God exist" i need to know what you mean by God. Now you have defined God as someone who created the universe that has settled that side of the question (notice that the more properties you add to god, the more evidence it will take to demonstrate he exist).

  you wrote on your last post how scientists failed hypothesis to prove that the universe was created by a god,

  No, i specifically wrote that there are many competing, contradictory ideas for how the universame came around. One of them is: God made it. So is it any truer than any of the other claims? If not, why should i accept it as such?

  would it be rational to conclude that these tests were done with what we humans currently know and understand?

  it would be stating the obvious.

  do you think these understanding could change in future changing our view on certain topics? do you see science as a set of laws or a form of free acquisition?

  Yes ofcourse, but that is stating the obvious once again. It is also possible any of the other ideas will turn out to be true, who knows? It is also possible that a new idea will come about sometimes after we have seriously begun to probe the problem experimentally, rather than grasping blindly as we do now.

  For me to accept the (complex) hypothesis god exist and made the universe I need evidence. If i have no evidence, i cannot accept it anymore than any of many other (arguably less amazing!) ideas for how the universe came about. They are, at the very best, equally likely, and that mean "god made the universe" must be unlikely indeed.

  I call that being an "atheist" because i can safely state: I do not accept the existence of God.

  Now --and this is a very important point-- The gods people actually believe in, and the god-ideas i am exposed to, is not simply: God made the universe and thats it. Its about Jesus, mohammed, Adam and Eve and so on.

  with respect to those Gods we know a whole lot more. they are contradicted by direct evidence again and again. I am a much stronger atheist with respect to those ideas.

  I hope that makes it more clear.
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  Fernando

  Not sure exactly how to understand and define atheism vs agnosticism.

  Very sure that Gnosticism as practiced by the Watchtower is apostasy (spiritual unfaithfulness, adultery, prostitution).

  The Watchtower postulates that we can be right with God by means of obtaining the so-called "right" knowledge. They back this lie up by mistranslating John 17:3 (compare NWT and KIT and www.bible.cc).

  It is not an accident that apostate Watchtower religionists do not believe, do not practice, and are not able to explain IMPUTED righteousness as repeatedly taught by Paul (Rom 3:24 and many more).

  As a SBNR (Spiritual But Not Religious) person I now accept not having all the answers. I am certain about the full or unabridged "good news" message which Watchtower followers are ignorant of. However I no longer have the need to pursue "certainty" on (ever flip-flopping and inane) doctrines, rules, moral codes and knowledge. Maybe this makes me a Spiritual Agnostic?

  Hope this helps at least a little, although it does not directly address the question.
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  ZeusRocks

  So by your logic, if I asked you - Have you stopped beating your wife? you could only give me a yes or no answer

  That kind of question has nothing to do with the subject of belief. I'm not talking about asking someone about beating their wife. I'm talking about belief. You either believe the proposition of a god (theist) or you don't (atheist). That's it. You're not being asked if you know whether there is a god or if a god is knowable or unknowable.
  Theist and atheist has to do with belief or disbelief, Honestly, how hard is that to comprehend. You might like to say your agnostic, but that says nothing about what you believe, it's just a stance of a claim of knowledge.

  If you are in a current state of disbelief in the proposition of a god, you're atheist. You can add agnostic to it if you want to just make clear that you're unsure if there is a god or not, but you either accept the proposition of a god (theist) or you disbelieve it at this point (atheist).

  Just to emphasize once again.

  Theist / Atheist: Someone cannot be both - To do with what you believe or don't

  Gnostic / Agnostic: Someone cannot be both - Claims to knowledge

  Mix and match between the 2 different categories to your hearts content but someone cannot be both within each.

  Besides, questions do exists that can only have a yes or no answer. If you cut off someone's head, will they die? Yes or No. There's no...maybe. Can you survive without oxygen? Yes or No. There's no...maybe. Do you believe in mermaids? Yes or No. There's no...maybe. Do mermaids exist? That's the question that has the option to say...well maybe, I'm not sure.

  People can class themselves as agnostic all they want, but it doesn't say what they believe, they could Agnostic Theist or Agnostic Atheist, then we would know if you believe in the proposition of a god even though you're not 100% or don't believe in the proposition of a god even though you're not 100%.