Thanks for providing the link, I read through the article with interest.
My questions were; who will die at Armageddon, will this include children and if so why would a loving God kill innocent children.
Regarding who will die at Armageddon, the Feb 2012 Watchtower article states that at least millions will die:
‘The prophecy in Revelation speaks of a time in the near future when Satan and the demons will motivate human governments to assemble their armies, thus issuing a defiant challenge to God’s interests. The attack will result in the death of millions of people when God defeats the invaders.—Revelation 19:11-18. (Watchtower February 2012)
The article also states that Armageddon will savemillions of lives:
‘The war of Armageddon results in the saving of millions of lives. In fact, it is a prelude to a period of peace on earth.—Revelation
21:3, 4.’ (Watchtower February 2012)
There are over 7 billion people on this planet so saying that millions will die and millions will survive says very little – it could mean that 7 billion people will die or that 7 billion will survive.
So, the Feb 2012 article does not definitively state how many will survive or be killed in Armageddon but does hint at who might survive or die:
‘In fact, God’s Word long foretold that Jehovah will destroy the wicked. (Proverbs
2:21, 22; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)’ (Watchtower February 2012)
God will defend good people from those who would crush them (Watchtower February 2012)
These are weasel words because ‘wicked’ and ‘good’ are subjective and open to interpretation. Take me for example, Am I good or wicked? I would say I am mostly good but some evangelical Christians or Islamists would probably describe me as thoroughly wicked.
I think the Watchtower is guilty here of speaking out of both sides of its mouth because it using language that has a double meaning – one meaning to the public and another to Jehovah’s Witnesses.
For example, under the heading ‘What lasting effect will this confrontation have’ the February 2012 Watchtower states that a ‘great crowd’ will survive the Armageddon:
The book of Revelation talks about an unnumbered “great crowd” who will survive this conflict. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Under God’s guidance, these will help to restore the earth to the Paradise conditions that Jehovah originally purposed. (Watchtower February 2012)
To most public readers of the February 2012 Watchtower, ‘unnumbered great crowd’ is vague and non-specific but implies many people, perhaps most people, however to Jehovah’s Witnesses it has quite a different meaning:
‘There would be "a great crowd" out of all nations who would not experience death but would have the prospect of living forever on earth. Are you among them?...The great crowd support the small number of those with heavenly hopes, who take the lead in the preaching work. Those of the great crowd are pictured as being marked for survival. (Ezekiel 9:4-6) "The mark" is the evidence that they are dedicated to Jehovah, baptized as disciples of Jesus, and involved in cultivating a Christlike personality’ (Worship the Only True God (2002) p.124)
Only those ‘marked’ for salvation will survive into Jehovah’s new system. (Ezek. 9:2-6) (KM 10/87 p. 8 par. 7 Help Others to Dedication and Baptism)
The Watchtower clearly identifies its members of the ‘Great Crowd’ since it teaches that it has ‘The Truth’ and that all other religions are false.
So, the February 2012 Watchtower is trying to appear moderate to members of the public by saying that only ‘wicked people’ will die in Armageddon. Most members of the public would consider ‘wicked people’ to be rapists and murderers but how does the Watchtower define ‘wicked’ people?
Evidently, the Watchtower views all those not associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses as wicked because in other Watchtower literature it quite clearly states that only Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive Armageddon:
"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." ( Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19) "Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradisewe must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." ( Watchtower 1983 Feb. 15 p.12) "Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists." ( Watchtower 2001 June 1 p.16)
This appears to be current teaching as of 2006:
"During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known God’s righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization." ( Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?" Paragraph 8)
I know you disagreed with me when I made this claim in my email last year:
The Watchtower teaching on this seems fairly unequivocal to me, only Jehovah’s witnesses will survive Armageddon and even the babies of worldly people will perish. Your understanding is different to mine on this matter
(my words in itallics, your words in bold)
But the Watchtower literature speaks for itself. Is your understanding of the Bible different than that of the Watchtower?
So, this leads onto my original question, if only Jehovah’s Witnesses will be saved, how many will be killed?
There are over 7 billion people in the world and only approximately 7 million Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jehovah’s Witness make up only 0.001% of the global population and so, according to watchtower teaching, 99.999% of the population, some 7 billion people, will be killed in Armageddon.
I previously asked you if the children of the ‘wicked’ will also be killed in Amrageddon and you could not give me a straight answer at the time.
The February 2012 Watchtower article you sent me does not address this question however previous publications have:
What will happen to young children at Armageddon? The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges. However, the Bible does show that God views the young children of true Christians as "holy." (1 Cor. 7:14) It also reveals that in times past when God destroyed the wicked he likewise destroyed their little ones." ( Reasoning from the Scriptures pp.47-48)
According to a Unicef report in 2005, there are approximately 2.2 billion children in the world so Armageddon will likely involve the slaughter of approximately 2.2 billion children.
Previously you agreed, in principle, that punishing children for their parent’s wrongdoings is wrong:
“If you were found guilty of murder by secular authorities would it be morally justified that not only were you imprisoned for the offence but your children as well? No To extend this analogy further; imagine you lived in a state which exercised capital punishment. Would it be morally justified that, if convicted of murder, your children (even if infants) were executed right before you? No What if the crime punishable by death was not just murder but failing to be a member of a particular group or organisation that most people did not realise they were supposed to a member of”
(my words in itallics, your words in bold)
Leaving God and the Bible aside for a moment, can you honestly justify the killing children for their parent’s wrong doings in any way?
If not, How do you reconcile your own sense of morality with Jehovah’s past and promised future actions? Either you believe it is morally justified to kill children for their parent’s wrongdoings or you believe Jehovah was wrong to murder infants during the flood and will be wrong when he kills billions of children in Armageddon.
Also, going back to my email last year (sorry, I know it is months ago now) I believe you misread one of my comments:
Your justification falls short. I agree that parents are responsible for their children but I do not believe children are responsible for their parents and so your analogy fails. I disagree. If you are referring to conduct, then parents are responsible for their children as children and young adults.
(my words in itallics, your words in bold -this was in response to you explanation that innocent children should be killed in Armageddon because their parents are sinners and parents are responsible for their children)
I agreed that parents were responsible for their children. My point was that children are not responsible for their parents. This is why your justification for the murder of children is wrong - children have no control over who their parents happen to be or what religion they are born into. It is therefore perverse to punish them for circumstances of which they have no say over.
The February 2012 Watchtower article attempts to answer some of these ethical questions:
Why would God, whom the Bible describes as “merciful, slow to anger, and abundant in loving-kindness,” cause the death of so many humans? (Nehemiah 9:17) To understand God’s actions, we need to answer three questions: (1) Who starts the war? (2) Why does God become involved? (3) What lasting effect will this confrontation have on the earth and its inhabitants? (Watchtower February 2012)
To question (1), the Watchtower states that ‘Armageddon is not an act of aggression by God. Instead God will defend good people from those who would crush them’. ‘Good people’ refers to, of course, Jehovah’s Witnesses. So Watchtower’s answer to the question why would God kill so many people is that he will kill most people but he will defend one small group – not much consolation to those killed.
To question (2), Watchtower states that God will become involved and kill billions of people because he promi sed he would and so if he fails to do so he will be made a liar.
‘If God did not step in to save his people, they would be wiped out. Therefore, Jehovah
God’s name, or reputation, will be at stake. If the aggressors managed to do away with His people, it would make Jehovah appear to be unloving, unjust, or helpless’ (Watchtower February 2012)
So, billions will die for the sake of God’s pride and keeping up appearances. Bizarrely, the Watchtower doesn’t consider that God killing billions of innocent children would also make him appear to be unloving or unjust.
To question (3), Watchtower essentially argues that the murder of billions of children is justified because the survivors will live on a paradise earth.
None of these questions, to my mind, justify the murder of billions. It is for this reason that even if you could convince me intellectually about ‘The Truth’ I would never accept it on a moral level.
Any God that demands worship and serfdom is unworthy of worship and any God that would threaten my family with death because of my personal beliefs is a tyrant.
