BOTR ....your mother's idea is a great example for others to follow. I wish I'd done it with my kids. Life might be different all the years later.
Loz x
Preventing a minor child from being baptized if you are their parent
by RayPublisher 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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pbrow
Ray, do you think the elders would go behind your back if you straight up told them they cannot baptize your children until they are 18? I would definately tell them. I seem to remember a recent experience in the watchtower or yearbook about a young girl waiting to get baptized because her unbelieving father wanted her to get an education first and that was respected by the elders.
Man, if your wife and the body of elders would do that than I would say it is even more imperative that you speed things up. Every day that the witnesses way of life is "normal" the more damage is being done.
Good luck
pbrow
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discreetslave
YOU MUST COME OFF AS THE REASONABLE ONE SEASON YOUR WORDS WITH SALT (WITH JW's YOU NEED MANY CONTAINERS OF IT) AND HAVE RESEARCH BACKUP TO REASON WITH YOUR WIFE.
Here is a topic outline I am using with young ones the article usually scares them into waiting I give them a copy of this to remind them wait until you are sure you can live up to this. Dedication & baptism is serious and no one can make that decision for you.
-MATT 28:19,20 Here is Jesus command regarding baptism
19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
-What is Baptism? Reasoning Book pg 54
Baptism
Definition: The word “baptize” comes from the Greek ba?pti′zein, meaning “to dip, to plunge.” (A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott) Christian water baptism is an outward symbol that the one being baptized has made a complete, unreserved, and unconditional dedication through Jesus Christ to do the will of Jehovah God.Since Baptism as an outward symbol of one having made a complete, unreserved , and unconditional dedication to thru Jesus to Jehovah it is a very serious matter.
-In Matthew 28:19 it says one is taught to observe all the things Jesus commanded, Luke 9:23 is Jesus command regarding dedication.
LUKE 9:23.“If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake day after day and follow me continually.”
What does disown himself and pick up his torture stake day after day and follow me continually.” mean?
The Watchtower June 1, 93 mentions
“If Anyone Wants to Come After Me”
6 What does it mean to disown oneself? It means that a person has to deny himself absolutely, a kind of death to self. The basic meaning of the Greek word translated “disown” is “to say no”; it means “to deny utterly.” Therefore, if you accept the challenge of the Christian life, you willingly surrender your own ambitions, comfort, desires, happiness, pleasure. In essence, you give your whole life and everything that it involves to Jehovah God for all time. To disown oneself means more than denying oneself certain pleasures now and then. Rather, it means that a person must relinquish ownership of himself to Jehovah. (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20) A person who has disowned himself lives to please, not self, but God. (Romans 14:8; 15:3) It means that every moment of his life, he says no to selfish desires and yes to Jehovah.
7 To pick up your torture stake, therefore, has serious implications. Carrying a stake is a burden and a symbol of death. The Christian is willing to suffer if need be, or be shamed or tortured or even put to death because of being a follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus said: “Whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:38) Not all who suffer are carrying the torture stake. The wicked have many “pains” but no torture stake. (Psalm 32:10) However, the Christian’s life is a life of carrying the torture stake of sacrificial service to Jehovah.8 The last condition Jesus mentioned is that we continually follow him. Jesus requires not only that we accept and believe in what he taught but also that, for our entire life, we continually follow the pattern he set. And what are some of the dominant features seen in his pattern of life? When he gave his followers their final commission, he said: “Go therefore and make disciples . . . , teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19, 20) Jesus preached and taught the good news of the Kingdom. So did his immediate disciples and, indeed, the entire early Christian congregation. This zealous activity in addition to their being no part of the world brought upon them the hatred and opposition of the world, which resulted in their torture stake being even heavier to carry.—John 15:19, 20; Acts 8:4.
-Dedication comes before baptism it must. No one can make you dedicate yourself to anything. The person must be ready & willing but most important understand why they are dedicating themselves. Dedication is like a marriage arrangement it must not be a decision made hastily.
1 Cor 7:36 emphasizes to be "...past the bloom of youth" in regards to marriage, since marriage is likened to ones dedication to Jehovah thru Jesus there is no shame in waiting.
Galatians 6:4,5 says "But let each one prove what his own work is, and then he will have cause for exultation in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load."
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Hope this helps
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discreetslave
Have your children watch this video
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WTWizard
If one parent is still in the cancer, the children are going to be pushed by that parent to get baptized too young. If the other parent tries to slow it down, the still-in parent will view this as Satan trying to prevent the child from getting baptized. This can happen even if both parents are in but one wants to take a more cautious approach and wait for the child to mature, while the other (and the hounders) want the child baptized at age 6. Try slowing down the child, you are seen as Satan working on your child.
And "Satan" has a valid point in this case (though the witlesses will not see it). So your child is ready for baptism? See what happens if you send that child to apply for a job, drop out of school, or get married. You could even try going into a coin shop and giving that child enough money for a silver eagle, and then sending the child into the coin shop alone with the money and asking them to buy the silver eagle. Chances are good that this child will not be viewed as mature enough to buy the eagle. Now, if a child is not going to be trusted with something valued at roughly US Toilet Paper $50, how are they to be trusted to make a decision that is going to adversely affect their whole lives?
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Band on the Run
If public school and AM/FM(sublime) radio did not exist, I don't have a clue as to what I woulld be today. The New York Times played a powerful role. I walked miles to get a copy on Sundays. Carrying our puppy dog back. She was very enthusiastic to come to the news store with me but put on the brakes all the way back. I dated a number one amoral jerk briefly. He was Jewish and his ex was relgious Orthodox Jew since the divorce. Their daughter was a ping pong ball. He pushed nonkosher food on her. One look on her face and I realized her world was so religious, no one taught her kosher rules. They assumed she would always be a fellow kosher keeper. I promised that as long as I was around, I would protect her from nonkosher food. Where was his paternal love when he took one look at how devestated she was
Nonkosher food was celebrated. Jewish beliefs were mocked relentlessly. I was the supporter - Christian, church attending me. Her mother enrolled her in yeshiva, which I had to agree was an inferior education. Rather than throwing nonkosher food in her face and mocking Moses, he could have enrolled her in programs for children at the Museum of Natural History, where she would be neutrally exposed to other cultures. It would be a brake on the Jersualem Post wtihout elevating it to a cosmic battle. The Metropolitan Museum of Art and MoMA also had children's classes. Altho she could only attend, every other week, she would have made nonyeshiva friends. He accosted strangers in Central Park for friends.
My point was there was a whole host of programs in NY that would honor and respect her mother's beliefs yet expose her to another, wider, more seductive world. They would not force nonkosher food on her. Even the Jewish foundations prob. ran programs that would show her a wider view of Judaism.
My mom would never say she did not believe. The double messages I received were hard. To be certain, I'd rather her doubts than the WT line. Today, I walk a fine line with Christianity. A line I simply could not walk as a child. Most of the wider world is glorious. You could make your point without screaming at them or going to court. Anyone getting a JW divorce should have this clear in the decree. Leaving children behind in the Witnesses is a cruel act. FAding is not forthright unless it enables you to see your children. Fading makes sense when one has doubts. They are learning how to hide their feelings and beliefs. Assertiveness is an important life skill. All of us people-please too readily. Do I know!
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techdotcom
Obeying god as ruler rather than men is a weak out on her part for going against your headship. The witnesses are commanded and to follow the direction of "Gods organization on earth" (threw up a little in my mouth typing that) and so by their own logic she would be following god by respecting his arrangement. Now, that being said.....pulling that headship crap on anything but the most subservient of wives is a good way to start the fireworks and make your job harder, not easier.
But the argument about how Jesus himself waited so long before presenting himself for babtism worked pretty well on my wife, as well as most witnesses really don't agree on how young kids are being "encouraged" to get babtized. All it takes is some reenforcement on this basic instinct to sway her on your side in this. But it will take gentle and continuous reminders over time. The social pressure in the org for children to make this step is enormous, to the point of the publications lauding 9 year olds who are "showing their dedication to Jehovah"......sick and innapropriate but there ya go.
More than likely she really agree's in principle with you on the babtism thing but to make any real statement to that fact is an admission that something isn't right. She may ,however, let you get away with putting the brakes on the babtism thing if handled carefully. Good luck, I well know how scary facing that prospect is, seeing your children on the verge of being sucked in. Stay strong, stay smart, maybe eventually you can help your wife see the "truth" for what it is too.
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Honesty
Is baptism a more important decision and step than marriage?
If the answer is "YES" then ask this:
Would it be advisable for my child to get married at this age?
If the answer is "NO" then ask this:
Is there a reason for my child waiting until they are at least mature enough to get married before they get baptised?
If the answer is 'NO" start all over at the top until the promoters of baptism give up.
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Billy the Ex-Bethelite
Here are the programmed JW responses:
"But Jesus was 30 when he was baptized."
JW: Jesus baptism was completely different. He was dedicated from birth. His baptism at 30 was to mark the start of his ministry. The correspondence today is that Jesus staying in the temple speaking to the religious leaders at 12 corresponds with our children today getting baptized at 12.
{barf} It's a disgusting argument, but one that some will aggressively push. Sorry, I should have given a barf alert sooner.
"Well, we wouldn't have our children getting married at this young age, and baptism is much more serious than marriage."
JW: But this is THE TRUTH! Young children don't get married because they don't know who they would want to marry. But when it comes to dedication and baptism, there is only one right answer... so baptize them as soon as possible. It will protect them from the world and put them in an approved relationship with God... and because this is the only TRUTH!
{barf some more} In their minds they've created such unscriptural reasoning that it's hard to battle.
{sigh} So what might work? I have very limited experience, but have helped to keep a niece away from baptism for a LONG time now.
1) Complete sarcasm. Isn't 12 a little old? Jews circumcised in the first week. Get with the program, start baptizing babies. It works great for Christendom, keeping all those little children to grow up and be good, unquestioning Church-goers. And if the kids grow up and happen to get drafted into the military and try to get exemption as a minister. When they board asks the age that they were ordained as a minister, think how impressed the board will be when they respond that they were officially ordained as a minister of Jehovah's Witnesses at the age of... 12, 10, or 8. Oh, wait, that's why Dad was turned down for his exemption and got laughed at. Sure, the Bible talks about "examining the scriptures" and being mature Christians, but this is the 21st century. The kids have to get baptized before they start talking to other kids, going to school, or looking at the Internet, and start asking a lot of questions. Because once they're baptized, they're not entitled to ask any more questions or have any doubts or they'll be disfellowshipped for apostacy. Once they're baptized, they will do exactly as they're told. Right?
2) My nieces parents are minimally active. I leveled with them on the blood issue. All the great arguments that I learned here, and some that I had formulated earlier when I was struggling in Bethel. Since my niece had nearly confronted a very serious blood issue, I made it quite clear that I would unhesitatingly confront anyone and everyone about the real truth if the blood issue ever came up. And I told them that I don't have a proxy, card, or anything else that would restrict me from proper medical care. They didn't "out" me. Nor have they said a word about baptizing their kids.
The only other observation I have to add, is from a conversation yesterday with my dad. He brought up about the dramas at the convention, and how they tugged at his heartstrings. Well, if you know much about me by now, I can sometimes spring an alarming right hook that completely changes the scenery. I actually startled myself at how passionate I got about the suspicion and hatred that the dramas are fueling among the JW kids. Certainly, if a kid isn't baptized, they are suspected of being the bad seeds in the dramas that are ready, eager, and willing to corrupt the other good, baptized JW kids. I brought up particular examples of how the attitudes portrayed in the dramas were creating a terrible culture of judgmentalism and hostility among the young. It's no wonder that 2/3s leave, because many that I've known are suspected of terrible wrongdoing and corruption based on the fabrications of some that are driven to feel like the persecuted righteous. Most of these stay and grow up to be bitter, self-righteous, and judgmental adults. The future of this organization is bleak. Baptizing JW babies won't fix what's broken. They will still leave.
Sorry if this is too much of a rant rather than an answer.
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BluesBrother
Baptism of a minor child should only take place if both parents are in agreement..That is how we viewed it when I served on the B of E.
A letter or even a phone call from a father to the COBE ought to stop them proceeding.
Tactics come in here. If a father lays down an arbitrary rule of "not before 18" he will seem obstructive. If, however, at the time the kids are taking the questions pre baptism, he then tells the elders that in his judgement they are "not ready for the responsiblity" and it is shelved for the time being, that ought to work...