How does the WTBTS Deceive.

by ABibleStudent 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ABibleStudent

  John 8:42-47 (NIV 2008)

  42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

  A couple of days ago on the JWN I read ” Is the Governing Body Guilty or not guilty of 1975 speculations going too far?” by Terry. It is a very interesting thread about how the WTBTS (i.e., Fred Franz) used rhetorical questions to “spoon feed information without taking any active personal responsibility according to Terry. Although JWs do lie and may justify lying with “Theocratic Reasoning” or “Theocratic Strategy”, would Our Father and Jesus Christ agree with deceiving “Worldly” people? Terry’s thread started me thinking about how to defend against tactics that the WTBTS uses.
  
  I like asking JWs (and people in general) questions as a less confrontation way of getting individuals to evaluate and think about their beliefs. Hopefully, I have not/will not ask rhetorical questions like the WTBTS does. My objective is always to get people to think and to respond authentically as an individual. The WTBTS’ objective is always to get JWs to blindly follow the WTBTS.
  
  What is the difference between asking rhetorical questions and asking questions? Can questions (and the following self-answers) be worded to indoctrinate people? The following two examples hopefully will show the differences between rhetorical questions with answers, and asking questions to stimulate thinking:
  
  Rhetorical question from WT

  Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ.

  Question

  Do you believe that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975?

  I have noticed that JWs use the following strategies/tactics (in bold) to promote what they are saying, change subjects, or continue with their original line of reasoning. After each strategy/tactic, I have written a proposed defending/counter tactic. Most of the counter tactics use the well known strategy that children use on their parents: ask why.
  o Completely ignoring what other people say/ask. Say have a nice day and walk away.
  o That is an interesting thought. Ask them, "why is it interesting?"
  o You are not ready to learn Bible Principles. Why do you feel specifically that I am not ready?
  o JWs are not perfect and do not know everything. Ask them, "Why they feel JWs are not perfect and which JWs do they feel are not perfect?" Or, if JWs are not perfect, why do they feel that they are the only “True” Christians?
  o The light keeps getting brighter and brighter. Ask them to explain, "Why the WTBTS has flipped flopped on specific doctrines?" Need to know at least a couple of doctrines and dates that the WTBTS has flipped flopped on.
  o Lying A person would need to be very knowledgeable about the Bible and WTBTS literature to have a conversation with someone who lies. It is probably best to say have a nice day and walk away.
  o Glazed over eyes while holding hands over ears and running away. Thank them for the exchange of ideas and tell them (shout, if they are far away) to have a nice day.
  
  If you have participated in WTBTS strategy courses, does the WTBTS teach other tactics? Have you observed JWs using other tactics than the aforementioned tactics? How would you defend/counter tactics that JWs use?
  
  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
  ABibleStudent
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  Larsinger58

  The fact is, 1975 was the last year to fulfill the 7th 1000 years of the 7000-year day based on their incorrect chronology.

  So it is more than 1975 failing to bring Armageddon and the millennium, the fundamentals still predict 1975 as the end of 6000 years and thus the failure of the Bible. That is, if 1975 didn't bring the millennium, too bad. The chronology must be wrong. But the final 1000-year rule of Christ must occur within the 7th Creative Day of 7000 years. So the WTS has to back off that doctrinal position as well. That is, how can they ever claim that the Lord's Sabbath is the 1000-year reign of Christ since the sabbath has to fulfill the 7th day, if only symbolically and not absolutely.

  Furthermore, the date for the creation of Eve is not given in the Bible so the absolute last 1000 years cannot accurately be confirmed by anyone. This leaves when Armageddon actually comes within God's own jurisdiction. Plus God has a lot of flexibility here.

  For instance, if you read Revelation carefully, after the millennium is over, Satan is still around. He comes out of the abyss and then tests post-millennial mankind. Many rebel against Christ, including "Gog of Magog" (Nazism, Satan's masterful invention). Then after this, the second resurrection takes place, with all the dead whomever lived come back to be judged. This also occurs before it is declared that "God is making all things New" (Rev 21:5) This is certainly a confirmatory code that this is actually when the 7th Creative Day ends and the 8th Creative Day begins. So in reality, the 1000-year reign is not the absolute last 1000 years of the 7th Creative Day. It has been moved up slightly to allow for Satan's last test, may 20 years (i.e. "a short while") plus Judgment Day, which could last up to 100 years. That gives Jehovah 80-100 years say of options for when to perfectly time everything. Even if the 1000-year reign occurs slightly before the absolute last 1000-years of the 7th Creative Day it still becomes a time of "rest" from Satan and fulfills the Great Millennial Sabbath.

  So that fundamental doctrine still must be fulfilled. Since the WTS erred by trust ancient revised documents for the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE rather than in 462 BCE (correct date), 1975 failed. Additionally, it was presumptious, I believe of them to think God was in that big of a rush to create Eve when Adam himself was an emotional 1-year old. Even if Eve was emotionally and mentally immature, as long as there was one adult on the scene things should have worked out. At any rate, the doctrinal interpretation that the 1000 years will occur within the 7th Creative Day is still on the books when you correct the chronology, even if you allow say 120 years for Satan's last deception and Judgment Day.

  The true date for the return from Babylon is 455 BCE. The Exodus occurs 19 jubilees earlier, which is 931 years (19 x 49) in 1386 BCE. From the time of the Exodus back to the creation of Adam is fairly academic and standard. So we can adjust 1975 by simply adding the 127-year discrepancy. That is, JWs have dated the Exodus to 1513 BCE, a totally ridiculous date archaeologically.

  1513 - 1386 = 127

  1975 + 127 = 2102 AD

  Now, if we make Adam 30 years old when Eve was created, which is a bit more reasonable than having him rush to get married, we can move the beginning of the 7th Creative Day back by 29 years. This is just a suggestion. You can adjust within this flexibility as you wish then compare. But in this case, the end of the 7th creative day would be 2131 AD.

  2102 + 29 = 2131 AD

  Now when we calculate for a potential millennium/Armageddon year, we can subtract 120 years for Judgment Day (100 years) and Satan's last test (20 years) and see a new ballpark:

  2131 - 120 = 2011 AD

  So as we can see, we have plenty of potential time until Armageddon, it's at least 11 years off per this calculation. Ummmmm. Wait a minute. What year is this? 2000 right? OMG!! NOoooooo!!! It's 20111 THIS YEAR! Oh Sh#T! Nobody has been preaching the world is going to end this year have they? You know God has to send out a warning before he whacks 2/3rds of the world's population; that's his policy. Please tell me no one is out preaching any kind of end of the world or judgment day going to happen this year! Has anyone heard anything?

  It does sneak up on you like a thief in the night, doesn't it!!

  Harold Camping, who?!!! Never heard of him.

  So, important thing is, while the WTS got their dating wrong, they did have the right idea about the limits of chronology with respect to the millennium within and near the end of the 7th Creative Day. So that still works. What doesn't work is the 607 BCE fall of Jerusalem, which is based on Persian Period revisions to the timeline. Everything works just fine when 455 BCE dates the 1st of Cyrus.

  SUMMARY: The WTS is the false prophet. Jehovah has taken their light from them. Light is to be found elsewhere now. But the Bible is still true in spite of WTS misrepresentation.

  LS
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  sabastious

  What is the difference between asking rhetorical questions and asking questions?

  I don't fault them for asking any type of questions, it's the answers they give and the emotional stigmas they attach to said answers that I fault them for.

  "Is it befitting of a true Christian to engage in gambling? Well, a true Christian is not greedy and gambling is a form greediness." It's not a stretch to say, without question, that the preceding statement highly discourages gambling by means of attaching it to an emotion: greediness. It should be noted that if the subject is ever DF'ed for gambling it will go on the records as "greediness."

  Yeah it's a tactic, but it should be easily seen through. I am ashamed to admit that I used to not only believe in such tactics, but applied them to others.

  -Sab
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  yknot

  Although JWs do lie and may justify lying with “Theocratic Reasoning” or “Theocratic Strategy”,

  Okay..... let me set you straight here...... 'strategy' isn't taught at great lenghts like it was DECADES ago (I learn it as part of the 1975 mania)

  I highly doubt majority of JWs (R&F) who came in after 1983 could even tell what the term meant or that we advocated the practice.

  Majority of JWs have cognitive dissonance...

  Majority of JWs have little knowledge of WTS History beyond whitewashed versions.

  Majority of JWs at a door are simply eager to feel worthy and aren't intentionally lying to anyone but themselves.

  While the WTS might be intentionally deceptive majority of JWs are not.

  I get your JW experience but since you have never been a JW please do not try and apply broad application on subjects in which you have limited knowledge and experience.

  That girl liked you but she has internal conflict due to the WTS......heck PM me her number and I will see if I can't wake her up for you!
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  Larsinger58

  It is "cognitive dissonance" matched with "goatiness." I'm disfellowshipped, but I have relatives in the truth. One is an elder. If it's an elder they think they can talk to you, maybe try to help you, especially if he's a relative. I asked him about the date of Jesus' death. How could a trial occur at noon and it get dark at noon and there still be a third-hour impalement. It is obvious you need two days. He couldn't answer it. He got upset and accused me of needing to study an abundance of apostate material to come up with that question, and then said even though he could not answer, he wasn't concerned because he knew the WTS could answer back. So in fact, they leave all their spiritual and doctrinal issues entirely up to the WTS. If something smells wrong, they claim they are not supposed to "run ahead" and it is their duty to remain loyal and to "wait on Jehovah" to correct anything. So that's why they ar false Christians. They are weeds. They look like Christians but they are not. They believe what the Watchtower tells them, but if it is coming straight from the Bible then they don't know what to do.

  Sometimes they are so attached to the WTS, they don't want to hear anything. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. They just know all they have to do is stick with Jehovah's appointed true organization and they will get life. So it doesn't matter if the WTS has some wrong teachings; that's not their concern. That's why the WTS fails. Always taking in knowledge but never coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth. They truly have a "form of godly devotion, but proving false in its power."

  By now, with all these "apostate" sites and all the anti-JW YouTube videos on YouTube, a true Christian would have left the organization by now, spiritually and/or physically. Those who are staying are not the kind of Christians who are concerned with truth, just appearances.

  Ls
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  itsacult2

  >>"with all these "apostate" sites and all the anti-JW YouTube videos on YouTube, a true Christian would have left the organization by now, spiritually and/or physically. Those who are staying are not the kind of Christians who are concerned with truth, just appearances."<<<

  Hi Lars58,

  The total contempt for anything but W$#%TOW#$#$ just amazes me. Just choose ignorance. I guess. You can't insult people's intelligence and expect them to follow you; but the W$#%TOW#$#$ somehow does this.
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  darth frosty

  Awake!, February 8, 2000 Issue, Page 21:

  Of course, being truthful does not mean that we are obligated to divulge all information to anyone who asks it of us. Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never ... turn around and rip you open, warned Jesus, at Matthew 7:6. For example, individuals with wicked intent may have no right to know certain things. Christians understand that they are living in a hostile world. Thus, Jesus advised his disciples to be cautious as serpents while remaining innocent as doves. ( Matthew 10:16; John 15:19) Jesus did not always disclose the full truth, especially when revealing all the facts could have brought unnecessary harm to himself or his disciples. Still, even at such times, he did not lie. Instead, he chose either to say nothing or to divert the conversation in another direction.

  This is a very fitting testament to how they manipulate the scriptures for their own purpose. Notice the nuanced way they use a tactic of Jesus for their own ends.

  In the scriptures given jesus was trying to teach or reason with the chief priest. But the WT twist his words to enable them to liw or mis direct a situation for their own means.
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  DesirousOfChange

  Originally I was convinced that sincere, well-meaning, imperfect people can make innocent mistakes or can be mislead....or confused. But since being here, the evidence has mounted that would indicate that some mistakes are not so innocent. Instead, an intentional effort todecieve seems apparent.

  WT spin on 1914 (see new DVD)

  WT spin on 1975

  New policy on accepting blood transfusions as stated to members of the Press

  Misquotes (so bad that they had to be intentionally misleading) in the Reasoning Book and Creator Book

  Changes in the wording of WT & AW articles & publications in re-prints and Bound Volumes

  Claims that The Holy Spirit makes appointments of Elders & GB members
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  ABibleStudent

  Hi Larsinger58, sabastious, yknot, itsacult2, darth frosty, and DesirousOfChange, thank you for reading this thread and writing your comments to it.

  sabastious, although you can see and understand the tactics that the WTBTS uses now, most people, who have not been exposed to WTBTS tactics and have not read the Bible very much, I believe, are very trusting and therefore very susceptible to the WTBTS tactics. I started this thread to hopefully raise people’s awareness of WTBTS’ tactics so that individuals can more effectively counter such tactics.

  Yknot, thank you for a history lesson about how the WTBTS has changed since 1983, and counsel to not to assume that all JWs behave and think the same. You are right that I do not have as much experience as you do about interacting with JWs. I am also not afraid to express my opinion as an individual to stimulate people to think and to ask for help to improve my understanding from more knowledgeable people. Like I wrote in the thread (Belated) Hello , “ I am moving on in my life trying to balance my many interests with helping others.” Part of helping others is to write a thread such as this one to empower JWs, former JWs, and non-JWs to free the minds and the Holy Spirit inside of JWs (and other highly controlling religions). Thank you for your kind offer to contact my former friend. I always look forward to learning more from you. I am sure that other people on this forum who have spouses or BFs would appreciate learning how you would counter WTBTS tactics and free the minds of a JW when talking with my former friend.

  Larsinger58, I am sure that many JWs stay in the “Truth” because of prestige (i.e., power), family, friends, social relationships, etc. I also believe that many R&F truly believe that they are serving Jehovah and it gives them a purpose for living. I would like to free the minds of JWs to see that they have power to change the WTBTS if they have the courage to stop donating time and money to the WTBTS, to write anonymous emails to other JWs to visit sites such as the JWN, jwfacts, watchtowerdocuments, silentlambs, etc., to read the Bible and pray more than to read the WTBTS literature, etc.

  darth frosty, I agree that the WTBTS manipulates the scriptures for their own purposes. I have also discovered that by reading the whole paragraph or chapter of a Bible Book that contains a scripture quoted in the Watchtower/Awake!, that most people will become aware of how the WTBTS manipulates the scriptures for their purposes. My favorite example is how the WTBTS quotes Mt 24:45 to justify why to blindly follow the WTBTS and GB saying that it is a prophesy, instead of quoting the whole paragraph (Mt 24:45-51) showing that it may be more of a warning.

  Mt 24:45-51 (NIV 2008)

  45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

  DesirousOfChange, I agree with you that the WTBTS’ leadership seems to be intentionally trying to deceive the R&F with the tactics that the Writing Department uses to feed the R&F. Maybe the GB and WTBTS’ leadership have crossed the line from spiritual enlightenment to maintaining a corporation’s existence with cash flow. It is also possible that Raymond Franz is correct. JWs should be free to decide for themselves, but they have many obstacles to overcome to free their minds and the Holy Spirit inside of them.

  Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

  ABibleStudent