Objectivism

by Spade 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Spade
    Spade

    Does anyone here agree with Ayn Rand and her supporter's version of objective reality?
    http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro

    My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:

    Metaphysics, Objective Reality:
    Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

    http://www.atlassociety.org/religion_objectivism
    Question: Is Objectivism compatible with religion?

    Answer: Most major religions have believed in the existence of a supernatural realm, a realm beyond the natural world of physical objects and bodies governed by causal laws, the world we perceive with our senses and can study by rational methods. Some religions posit a personal god (or gods); others believe in impersonal supernatural forces. (See George Walsh, The Role of Religion in History, chapter 1.) Objectivism rejects any notion of the supernatural as incompatible with the objectivity and regularity of nature as identified by reason. There is no credible evidence of miracles, magic, or other supernatural phenomena in nature.

    The dominant forms of religion in our culture posit a personal god, a Supreme Being, who created the world, is omnipotent and omniscient, imposes moral duties on man, and expects worship. Those who accept this idea have the burden of showing why such a hypothesis is necessary. In this regard, Objectivists are atheists because the arguments for the existence of such a being are not sound. Objectivists reject the existence of God for the same reason they reject the existence of elves, leprechauns, and unicorns: because there is no credible evidence of such beings.

    • It is said that we need to posit God as a creator in order to explain the existence of the natural world. But there is no reason to think that the existence of this world requires an explanation by anything outside itself. While individual things in the natural world come and go, as a result of specific causes within that world, it does not follow that the world itself must have a cause.
    • It is said that we need to posit God as a designer in order to explain the complex order within the natural world, including the adaptation of living things to their environments. But the existence of order as such does not require an explanation. Any existing thing must have some identity and obey causal laws. It is only with the natural realm that we can explain how a particular type of order arises from natural causes. That includes the particular order we find among living things, for which the best current explanation is the operation of evolutionary processes.

    Of course these brief summaries cannot do justice to the arguments, which have been discussed by philosophers for centuries. For further discussion and references, see George Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God.

    There is a profound difference, then, between Objectivism and traditional religions in their respective views of the world. But this is not the primary conflict. The primary conflict is reason versus faith as methods of adopting one's worldview in the first place.

    Objectivism regards reason as an absolute. It holds that all knowledge is based on the evidence of the senses. It holds that all beliefs, conclusions, and convictions must be established by logical methods of inquiry and tested by logical methods of verification. In short, it holds that the scientific approach applies to all areas of knowledge. Blind faith, by contrast, consists in belief not based on evidence, or based on such spurious forms of "evidence" as revelation and authority. Faith is essentially an arbitrary exercise of the mind, a willful credulity based on subjective emotions rather than objective evidence, a desire for certainty without the scrupulous cognitive effort required to achieve rational certainty. Faith cannot substitute for reason as a means of knowledge, nor can it supplement reason. Reason is incompatible with arbitrary procedures of any kind.

  • r51785
    r51785

    Ayn Rand seemed really profound when I was an undergraduate. I read several of her books. But I grew up and got over it.

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    My understanding of Objectivism is everyone minds their own business and does what’s in their own best interest, rather than waiting for someone else to do it for them. It’s a form of laissez faire capitalism. It also embodies the philosophy that everybody does things for selfish reasons, even what appears to be totally selfless acts, e.g. people do drugs for the way it makes them feel; people donate to charity for the way it makes them feel. One is considered selfish, while the other philanthropic, but the reason behind both is the same.

    I believe God supports Objectivism, per some Scriptures. “There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving”, “they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree”, “They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating.”, “If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.”

    In the case of an atheist, he/she sees no value in living a “Godly” lifestyle and would agree with Paul that being truly Christian is pitiable. In the case of someone with eternal goals and ‘realities not beheld’, that one sees value in living a lifestyle approved by God. Also, atheists tend to lump all churchgoers into one group and fail to appreciate the axiom “If going to church makes one a Christian, then being in a garage makes one a car.” Being a superstitious, judgmental, ignoramus, looking to start “holy wars” everywhere isn’t in anyone’s best interest, so I can understand the atheist viewpoint

    As a JW, I feel we should have more in common with atheists than willfully ignorant, brainwashed church attendees who out of sheer refusal to read the very book they claim to base their lives on, cling to a religion they probably don’t even believe or understand. But, alas, most JWs are of exactly the same mentality and are merely looking for someone to pull some Bible parlor trick on. When the average JW encounters someone with any Bible knowledge, they quickly end the conversation and look for someone stupid to preach at. I believe that is why most JWs tend to be radical liberals, even though they claim to have no political leanings.

  • villabolo
    villabolo

    Is the universe totally "obejective" and knowable?

    Although I do not pretend to understand it, it seems that Quantum Physics softens the "objective". At least on the subatomic level.

    Nonetheless a cascade of events from the subatomic level to the macroscopic world could alter what all the "obective" and logical mind can prceive and predict. It seems that God does play dice with the universe. At least up to a point.

    Villabolo

  • bohm
    bohm

    i dont think Ayan Rand make a very compelling argument. these statements tick me off:

    But there is no reason to think that the existence of this world requires an explanation by anything outside itself.

    is there really NO reason? REALLY? (i assume "this world" is our observable post big-bang singularity universe). also:

    But the existence of order as such does not require an explanation.

    really? i mean REALLY? i think its one heck of an interesting problem, and one must be blind to not understand there is a potential to provide very strong evidence for a creator here. Fortunately, evolution explain order in the biological world and inflation explain why the universe is in such a low entropy state.

    Any existing thing must have some identity and obey causal laws.

    why causal laws? why is there no argument for such a sweeping statement?

    It is only with the natural realm that we can explain how a particular type of order arises from natural causes.

    phew, for a moment i thought the supernatural world explained how a "particular type or order" [wtf?] arose from natural causes. the sentence says nothing.

    That includes the particular order we find among living things, for which the best current explanation is the operation of evolutionary processes.


    Basically, where i think Rand miss the mark completely is that she (which is it?) seem to put certain things which are not very well explained (if explained at all) into boxes, "does not need to be explained", and somehow think thats a good idea. the right way to do it is to ask "does God offer a particular good explanation for this observation" and continue from there.

    I also think she misrepresent religion entirely by tying them up with non-rational thought like "faith" in the last section (strangely she dont really seem to tackle religion very much). Sure there are people who insert faith instead of reason, but there is no reason assume this is the same as religion per definition. I think the vast majority of christians would argue they first and foremost believe in the bible because of sound arguments and reason, only later faith enter based on the conclusion the bible is right.

    i would love to see her in a debate with WLC. :-).

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    LOL

    If you are trying to maintain that you are not the same individual that created the poster paster mAlice.in.LaLaLand, this thread isn't helping your cause.

    She used to start pasting Ayn Rand to take attention away from subjects where she/he/it was getting its butt kicked too.

    If you hadn't thrown your toys out of the cot as mAlice, you wouldn't have to hide behind new characters. I wonder how long this one will last?

    Objectivism contains elements of cultishness that should be right up your alley for when you give up on the Watchtower and go looking for a new high control group to lose your thinking ability to.

  • cofty
    cofty

    There is a very interesting series of lectures on the BBC website called "Justice" that looks at the difference between the Objectivism of Immanuel Khant and the philosophy of utilitarians Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill.

    There is a series of 7 half hour programmes which are all lectures by Harvard Professor Michael Sandel. I strongly recommend them if you can get BBC iplayer in your country.

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter
    Faith cannot substitute for reason as a means of knowledge, nor can it supplement reason.

    The second part is where I disagree. This statement is based on the assumption that those ideas which have not been proven (or disproven) have no value. That is an internal contradiction, because that very assumption cannot be proven nor disproven: it is itself an article of faith!

    "Objectivism" itself is faith, the hubris, that knowing absolute truth through reason is even possible. Faith is how we react to the realization, the humility, that the more we learn through reason, the more we realize just how limited our reasoning is.

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