fodeja wrote:
Yes! I chose to gloss over [..]Thanks for the admission. We have established, then, who is attacking without just cause and sufficient reason.
Small Hint: It isn't me.
--
Focus
(Anti-EddicaySHUN Class)
How many JW's in the nazi camps?
by Norm 23 Replies latest jw friends
-
Focus
-
Focus
GermanJW wrote:
I have some problems with your ad hominem attacks on my person including ridiculing my position
Good.
(1) I have bigger problems with your shameful apologia here for the Watchtower and their articles relating to the death camps, given:
(a) the German JW leader was an open collaborator with the Nazis - see Kent's site for plenty of information about Uncle Erich;
(b) JW President Rutherford had widely openly praised and aligned himself with the Nazi's racial and other policies eight years after the publication of Mein Kampf;
(c) their repeated implication that jWs (70%+ of whom survived the concentration camps, by the WT's own jumbled-up figures) individually suffered more persecution than Jews (less than 1% of whom survived the concentration camps);
(d) the authoritative way that the WT outputs material when they lack the facts and have not bothered to do any proper research;
(e) the shameful WT quote-cheating and manipulation, etc.(2) Your position is ridiculous. It takes no ridiculing.
If the Watchtower had any shame or decency, they would apologize or at least maintain silence. Instead, they lie and crow about it, and even try to grab compensation money for Brooklyn out of funds intended for victims...
I have been gentle with you so far, believe you me.
--
Focus
(Face The Facts Class) -
waiting
Noticed the change in the subject matter. Is it possible to have a discussion about a serious matter without throwing insults? I would assume by the intellect *hinted* at in this thread, that such a good discussion could be had.....IF.
I brought this over, as I found it last year on the net. Intersting study as to how JW's were treated during WWII in Nazi concentration camps as compared to homosexuals.. Actual statistical information is available at the site. As has been brought out, the numbers would depend upon where the author actually got their numbers. I don't know how well this study is supported by outside authenticity. Interesting, nonetheless.
.. http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/lautmann.html
"Gay Prisoners in Concentration Camps as Compared with Jehovah's Witnesses and Political Prisoners" by Ruediger Lautmann (please visit site for actual documentation of quotes)
Quote...Regarding Nazi atrocities in this way has its price; it represses emotion. It focuses on details, rather than on the Holocaust as a whole. ...
Those groups whom the Nazis deemed inimical but not racially undesirable were not completely rounded up, but taken only in random samples They also fared differently within the camps. Homosexuals, political prisoners, and Jehovah's Witnesses are among the groups who were sent to the concentration camps for reeducation. They were supposed to renounce their particular orientation. ...
No credence was placed in a simple change of opinion by homosexuals, such as was granted to Jehovah's Witnesses, who were not taken entirely seriously, or even to political prisoners. Two categories were seen among homosexuals: the constitutionally hard-boiled homosexual and the occasional offender. ...
In my empirical research, I have sifted all extant documents to examine the names and data on all concentration camp prisoners registered as being homosexual.' I found the data for about 1,500 homosexuals (This is a complete survey of the quite incomplete documents). I chose as control groups Jehovah's Witnesses (about 750) and political prisoners (200). Each category of prisoner seemed to possess a characteristic social profile. If we look at the distribution according to age upon committal to a camp, the Jehovah's Witnesses predominate in the somewhat older age group (from 35), and the homosexuals in the second somewhat younger one (20-35). Committal figures have regular curves, which are quite different for the three groups. For homosexuals the year 1942 marks the peak (with a quarter of all committals), and for Jehovah's Witnesses the years 1937 and 1938 (half of all committals) are the peaks. The committal figures for the politicals remain at the same level, with a slight rise toward the year 1944. The death rate for homosexual prisoners (60 percent) was one and a half times as high as for political prisoners (41 percent) and Jehovah's Witnesses (35 percent). ...
Quantitative analysis offers a sad explanation for the extraordinary lack of visibility: the individual pink-triangle prisoner was likely to live for only a short time in the camp and then to disappear from the scene. After four months, one in four had left; after a year, one in two. It was otherwise for the Jehovah Witnesses and politicals: after a year four out of five and two out of three, respectively, were still in the camp. This thinning out is due to deaths: three out of four deaths among the homosexuals occurred within the first year after their committal. In comparison with the red and violet triangles, the pink triangle seems to signify a category of less value. The destinies of Jews and homosexuals within the camp approximate each other. In the concentration camp, both groups found themselves at the bottom of the current hierarchy below the non-Jewish racially defined groups of prisoners." end Quote
No matter what the reason or cause, 635 deaths, whether righteous or not, is horrible. Millions of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, and so many others just adds to the absolute grossness of the situation. Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other group, holding this situation up for pride or acknowledgement, is deplorable.
waiting
ps: Thanks, Norm, for the subject matter. However, I see what German jw is speaking of.....as if there is a flippancy to the death of 635 persons. Seeing that English is not the first language of either of you (I am assuming here), it's commendable that the delivery is quite concise.
If you speak three languages, you're trilingual.
If you speak two languages, you're bilingual.
If you speak one languae, you're American. -
Focus
waiting wrote:
Note that what I insert here is neither within quote marks nor indented in Board style or with ">" or ":", and so is not to be attributed to waiting. It is conventional where a diagrammatic threading is not present to show at the top the identity of the person to whom the response is made.
waiting has had some difficulties comprehending this is in the past, and, rashly deluded into thinking that this practice represents some form of error on my part, has posted repeatedly that Focus has been caught out. Well, victories over me - even wholly bogus ones - must have some value for some... Weird...
Is it possible to have a discussion about a serious matter without throwing insults?
Yes. But sometimes, these are most necessary, and one becomes a party to the wrongdoing if one does not.GermanJW's conduct in this thread has been shameful. His clarity and exactness of writing makes excuses of linguistic misunderstandings on his part a load of baloney or bratwurst.
GermanJW berates Norm for pointing out the very repeated use of (wildly fluctuating) jW death statistics in its "literature". But as you very rightly say:
Millions of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, and so many others just adds to the absolute grossness of the situation. Jehovah's Witnesses [..] holding this situation up for pride or acknowledgement, is deplorable.
Precisely, waiting. The nail has been smitten truly on its head.But GJW has expressed no criticism of the WT, but he attacks Norm (he refers to Norm's "remarks") for highlighting both the mercenary nature of the WTS (trading as it does upon the corpses of hundreds of jWs slaughtered by the Nazis) and the unreliability of the facts pronounced with such an air of certainty by this filthy, disgusting organization that sends its spiritual-pimps from door to door telling people:
"If you do not join our organization now, and accept all our beliefs, the LEADER OF OUR ORGANIZATION IS GOING TO SWOOP DOWN AND KILL YOU AND YOUR MINOR CHILDREN"
Yeah?
However, I see what German jw is speaking of.....as if there is a flippancy to the death of 635 persons
Alleged flippancy *WHERE*????BY THE WATCHTOWER, for sure, by reversing themselves and contradicting themselves so many times on this matter. NOT BY NORM OR MYSELF.
Do not fall for GJW's pathetic strawman, where he criticizes what he wishes Norm wrote (or I wrote) rather than what was written.
If he can't understand English well enough (LOL! - which I do not buy for a minute), then he should stay clear of highly emotive subjects of this nature where his input is going to be criticizing an existing poster for the precise wording he uses..
And I take it his lack of criticism of the WTS on this can also be attributed to English not being his first language?
Yeah?
--
Focus
("Engage brain first" Class)