by Sassenach 41 Replies latest jw friends
Perhaps you can help me with this. I've recently had a discussion with a witness friend in which she said that Jehovah had to have an organization. If not Jehovah's Witnesses, then who else could possibly have His approval?
What I would like to know is if Jehovah has always had an organization, who were they? I know that the first century Christians were considered to be one, but who else?
Thanks
Well... if you go onto the Bible Research forum, and read the posts by MDS and Bitter Truth, all will become clear
Edited by - logical on 28 December 2000 12:45:17
Logical, I can't get the board to display posts older than ten days. When I click for posts earlier back I get a message that reads:
"405 Method Not Allowed
The method specified in the Request Line is not allowed for the resource identified by the request. Please ensure that you have
the proper MIME type set up for the resource you are requesting.
Please contact the server's administrator if this problem persists."
I'm using netscape. Is there another way to view the posts?
I'll look into this Sassenach - it should work with Netscape OK though.
Greetings,
Jehovah has NEVER dealth with an organization, he HAS, however dealt with individuals.
If by chance these individuals get organized for any given purpose, it is simply for that ... a purpose, NOT, however for claiming for themselves things not given to them.
It is myself that Jehovah has had faithful servant[s] on the earth, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the prophets, Although he did deal with Israel as a nation, it was only because of a promise he made to Jacob and his forefathers, a promise he cannot rescind. Today the highest order is within the congregation, still, God deals with the individuals of these congregations AS individuals and not collectively.
One must always keep in mind that no matter how braggy the Society is, or all the claims they make, no matter how many hours you do in service, literature placed, studies conducted, meetings attended, converts made, the Society can NOT give you everlasting life. That is only by Jesus.
Tus association with the Society is NOT a means of everlasting life ... it is through Christ Jesus , through our personal relationship with HJim that we gain salvation, not through manmade organizations.
"People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"
RR,
Thank you. I guess I didn't make my initial entry clear. What I would really like to know is what do Jehovah's Witnesses believe? This isn't the first time I've heard a witness say "Jehovah has always used an organization", but I've never heard of another 'organization' except the first century Christians.
Hey Sass,
read the posts by MDS and Bitter Truth, all will become clear - logicalThat is logical's own, personal opinion. I've read most of those posts - and I think they're not worth the space they take up on my screen. That is my personal opinion.
What I would really like to know is what do Jehovah's Witnesses believe? This isn't the first time I've heard a witness say "Jehovah has always used an organization"
I've been a jw for 30 yrs. To the best of my knowledge, the WTBTS teaches that there has always been an individual or group of individuals who have faithfully kept the Bible alive. In the Dark Ages and during the Spanish, then Roman Inquisitions, these individuals were persecuted horribly for their beliefs - which weren't the same as the WTBTS of today. But they were honestly trying to serve God out of love. The Jacobeans, Wesylans, etc.
The WTBTS teaches that the first century Christians were an established organization with elders, governing body, etc. That is doubtful if you take the time to read the history of the first century Christians. To jump from the first century Christians (doubtful organization) - thru Russell (their founder, who was deadset against any type of religious organization) - to the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is quite a leap, don't you think?
The jw who told you the above quote was incorrect. Many jw's make sweeping generalizations to back up their stance. They know that the vast majority of individuals who they talk to don't know much about the Bible or biblical history. Safe sweep for them.
Nice to meet you.
waiting
Jehovah's Witnesses strongly contend that God works with an organization and not with individuals. Here is an excerp from one of their publications:
*** Live Forever 192-4 23 God's Visible Organization ***
GOD’S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION—PAST AND PRESENT
4 The Bible shows that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. For example, men of faith such as Abraham led their families and servants in worshiping Jehovah. Jehovah made known his will for Abraham by speaking with him. (Genesis 12:1) And God instructed him to pass this information on to others, saying: “I have become acquainted with [Abraham] in order that he may command his sons and his household after him so that they shall keep Jehovah’s way.” (Genesis 18:19) Here was an orderly arrangement for a group of people to worship Jehovah properly.
5 Later, when the Israelites increased in numbers and became millions, Jehovah did not let each one worship in his own way, separate from any organized arrangement. No, the Israelites were formed into a nation of organized worshipers. The nation of Israel was called “Jehovah’s congregation.” (Numbers 20:4; 1 Chronicles 28:8) If you were a true worshiper of Jehovah back then, you had to be part of that congregation of worshipers, not separate from it.—Psalm 147:19, 20.
6 What was the situation in the first century? The Bible shows that Jehovah’s favor was upon the followers of his Son Jesus Christ. Jehovah poured out his holy spirit upon them. To show that he was now using this Christian organization rather than the nation of Israel, he gave certain early Christians power to heal the sick, raise the dead and to perform other miracles. You cannot read the Christian Greek Scriptures without being impressed by the fact that Christians were organized for worship. In fact, they were commanded to meet together for this purpose. (Hebrews 10:24, 25) So if you were a true worshiper of Jehovah in the first century, you had to be a part of his Christian organization.
7 Did Jehovah ever use more than one organization during any period of time? In Noah’s day only Noah and those with him inside the ark had God’s protection and survived the floodwaters. (1 Peter 3:20) Also, in the first century there were not two or more Christian organizations. God dealt with just the one. There was just the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Ephesians 4:5) Likewise in our day Jesus Christ foretold that there would be only one source of spiritual instruction for God’s people.
8 When telling of his presence in Kingdom power, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:45-47) On his return in Kingdom power in the year 1914, did Christ find a “faithful and discreet slave” class providing spiritual “food,” or information? Yes, he found such a “slave” made up of the remaining ones on earth of his 144,000 “brothers.” (Revelation 12:10; 14:1, 3) And since 1914 millions of persons have accepted the “food” they provide, and have begun practicing true religion along with them. This organization of God’s servants is known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.
9 Jehovah’s Witnesses look to God and his Word for direction in all that they do. Their very name Jehovah’s Witnesses shows that their main activity is to witness about the name and kingdom of Jehovah God, even as Christ did. (John 17:6; Revelation 1:5) Also, they call the place where they meet for worship the Kingdom Hall because God’s kingdom by the Messiah, or Christ, is the theme of the entire Bible. Since it is clear that first-century Christianity had God’s approval, Jehovah’s Witnesses pattern their organization after it. Let us look briefly at that early Christian organization and then note the similarities with God’s visible organization today." --end quote
There is quite a bit of information in their literature about it. Let me know if you are interested in more.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
All in a nutshell? The Witnesses believe that they, and they alone are True Christians, they have taught to gain salvation, one must be a baptized Jehovah's Witness in good standing, that all other religions are of the devil, that there is only two sides, satan's and Jehovah, and if your not on Jehovah's side [a witness] then you are on satan's side and will perish at armageddon, because ONLY Jehovah's Witnesses will survive and be delivered. They view the Society as God's visible organization on earth and that it is the spiritual ark, one must be in to gain salvation.
Actually the scriptures teach that Jesus is the ark in which to gain salvation.
"People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"
Hey Frenchy,
In response to the WTBTS's article on organization:
#4. Here was an orderly arrangement for a group of people to worship Jehovah properly. An orderly arrangement does not mean an organization. Who says what is "proper?"
#5. If you were a true worshiper of Jehovah back then, you had to be part of that congregation of worshipers, not separate from it. That would be the Mosiac Law, and we are not under that Law, no matter how hard the Society tries to put us under certain parts of the Law. Jesus came as fulfillment of the Law to free us of the Law.
#6. So if you were a true worshiper of Jehovah in the first century, you had to be a part of his Christian organization. This one, I find questionable. What about the Ethopian Uniuch? There is no Biblical record that he joined any group, let alone organization. What about the man who was doing miracles apart from Jesus and his disciples? Jesus response: Leave him alone, he does works in the name of Jesus. (Somebody here will know the scripture. - the apostles wanted Jesus to rebuke the man who was not a close follower of Jesus, but Jesus refused to rebuke him.) These two accounts were written "for an example for us to follow" according to the Society - as were the rest of the scriptures, even the account of Melchizedek, who didn't follow anyone that is written about.
#7. Did Jehovah ever use more than one organization during any period of time? In Noah’s day only Noah and those with him inside the ark had God’s protection and survived the floodwaters. (1 Peter 3:20) This was not "an organization." This was one man's family in a big boat. Which some find the whole account historically questionable. At the very least - 8 people considered an organization is like a bunch of kids thinking they are a secret society.
#8. And since 1914 millions of persons have accepted the “food” they provide, and have begun practicing true religion along with them. Why was 1914 brought into this discussion of Jehovah's organization throughout the centuries?
#9. Since it is clear that first-century Christianity had God’s approval. Agreed.
#9a. Jehovah's Witnesses pattern their organization after it. That would be the most debatable comment, don't you think?
Besides that, the WTBTS jumped entirely the years 100 after Jesus to the year 1914. Pretty remarkable jumping ability, don't you think, Frenchy?
waiting
