Romans 11 : 26 - all Israel will be saved - Which one, and When ?

by aligot ripounsous 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  aligot ripounsous

  The question of readers article in June JWs only WT magazine (the one which is studied in August) deals with Romans 11 : 26 where Paul writes that "all Israel will be saved".

  As we know, if CT Russell believed that this statement was to be understood literally and he expected the Jews to convert to christianity as a sign of Christ's return, the current position of the WTS, as explained in this QFR article, is that "spiritual" Israel and not fleshly Israel is what it is about in Rom. chapter 11 and Christ's return will be marked by the completion of the whole number of the 144 000 anointed.

  Now, during that boring WT study about authority, I set out on reading that whole chapter 11 and it seems to me that what Paul meant was that Jehovah's undeserved kindness would be extended to the fleshly jews, as a people and not as individuals, on account of God's promise to Abraham, albeit their having rejected Christ. Verse 12 looks quite explicit : "Now, if their false step [having put Jesus to death] means riches to the world [covenant extended to gentiles], and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will the full number of them mean it !" and verse 32 : " For God has shut them all up together in desobedience, that he might show all of them mercy".

  That example, IMO, is quite telling of how the WTS is twisting the scriptures and quotes bits of them out of context, so as to make them fit with what this organization has decided them to mean, against scriptural evidence. Now, if literal Israel has to convert before Christ's return, we're not on the eve of the latter as yet...
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  brojo

  I left the WT in 1990. Since the 70s whenever I read Roman 11 it seemed clear to me that it referred to fleshly Israel, not spiritual Israel as taught by the WT. In the early 80s, I was assigned to give the summary of the WT at the circuit assembly. Since I had trouble accepting the WT position, I wrote the WT for clarification. As they usually do, they encouraged me to read what they had published dating back to the 1940s on the subject. It was somewhat helpful in enabling me to at least go ahead and present the material in the then current WT at the circuit assembly. However, I still had trouble accepting their viewpoint. In the early 80s, I began reading some of Russell's writings at the urging of a co-worker whose aunt happened to be a "Bible Student" (Russellite). I was literally shocked to find out that the WT for over 50 years had taught that Rom 11 referred to natural Israel. One of CT Russells books had over 60 pages on the restoration of Israel. I wrote the Society again, this time mentioning Russell's viewpoint and some of the scriptural arguments he used in support of his position.

  Included in their reply, they encouraged me to consider the context of Romans 11. I decided to read the entire book of Romans with a completely open mind in an effort to see what conclusion I would come to on this subject. It was this unbiased reading of Romans that ultimately enabled me to see that the WT position was unsupportable not only on Israel, but more importantly their whole teaching on two classes of Christians. Romans chapter 8, more than any other chapter in the Bible is what ultimately led to my separation from the WT org. I was aware that the big shakeup in Brooklyn had something to do with who should partake of the memorial emblems. I now wondered if others had seen what I was seeing in Romans 8. I found out from a Newsweek article that covered a protest demonstration at Bethel and the dismissal of Ray Franz from Bethel, that Ray had written a book, Crisis of Conscience. I came across the book in a book store but could not bring myself to purchase it, not wanting to contribute to "apostates". I eventually borrowed it from a library. After reading it, I knew my days as a JW were numbered.

  Getting back to the subject of Israel, a group of us including some former JWs will be getting together for several discussions of this subject. As you all may know, among Christians, there are those who have differing viewpoints on Romans 11. Many hold that Israel here refers to the Church as the "new Israel", and natural Israel has no more place in God's purpose. And there are those, myself included who see Romans as pointing to natural Israel's restoration based on His covenant with Abraham.

  Joe
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  BurnTheShips

  I left the WT in 1990. Since the 70s whenever I read Roman 11 it seemed clear to me that it referred to fleshly Israel, not spiritual Israel as taught by the WT.

  Israel includes those that are "grafted in". This is not just fleshly Israel.

  BTS
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  Brother Apostate

  Could it be any clearer? Anyone who reads the following verses with understanding has been given the answer:

  5Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. 6This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.

  - Hebrews 7:5-7

  11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

  -Hebrews 7:11

  22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," [ a ] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

  - James 2:22-24

  21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

  - Galatians 4:21-23

  18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

  - Galatians 3:18

  16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[

  a ] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

  - Romans 4:16,17

  6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[

  a ] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[ b ]

  - Galatians 3:6-8

  8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[

  a ] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[ b ]

  - Galatians 3:8-10

  13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[

  a ] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

  -Galatians 3:13.14

  BA- Answering the question.
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  Guest with Questions

  I started a personal study on this very subject. See http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/164503/3047305/post.ashx#3047305

  I don’t believe that God has ever forsaken Israel. Four covenants that He made with Israel are everlasting. As Gentiles we didn’t have the hope. We were outsiders looking in. When Jesus died that barrier was lifted and we are now grafted into that same tree as Israel. We are one.

  Romans 11:1-2, Romans 11:11-28 Ephesians 2:11-22 Ephesians 3:2-6
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  hamsterbait

  This QFR shows how like the Scribes and Pharisees the Witchtower has become.

  As Jesus said "adroitly you set aside the word of God".

  The article says "Jehovah rejected Israel as a nation" yet Romans 11:2 says "God did NOT reject his people." and yet if these verses apply to SPIRITUAL Israel, then they are admitting that v31 applies to them "they have become disobedient" and v32 "God has bound them over to DISOBEDIENCE"

  So if the WT is disobedient and "bound up in error"(NWT) why would anybody with sense listen to them?

  HB
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  M.J.

  So lemme get this straight. The WTS is dividing up the subject of Paul's discourse here into two separate groups? The ones who go through a "hardening" and committing a "false step" are natural Israel, but when it comes to those who "will be saved", NOW he's talking about "spiritual Israel"? When all along, Paul is simply talking about "Israel"?
  
  That's really a stretch!
  
  Is it possible for someone to post the QFR? Thanks!
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  aligot ripounsous

  (deleted)
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  cameo-d

  Please excuse if this is slightly off topic. This is in reference to B.A. answer to topic.

  13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law

  Which is the law that is cursed? The Law "of Moses"? or the Noahide laws?

  If these laws were part of the covenant agreement, then why are they now (in New Testament) considered a CURSE?

  Did Christ redeem people from this curse through his teachings?