If death is the result of sin, why do animals die?

by Orgull 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Orgull

  My first week of posts here were very serious and all the wonderful, encouraging replies helped me very much.

  So now I want to ask something semi-frivolous. (Actually it's one of the many things that don't make sense to me about "the truth")

  Why do animals die?

  The bible tells us that death is the result of sin. Logically if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would not have died. So they would have been in a paradise, surrounded by thousands of creatures that would experience death constantly. Why? How would that be anything but horribly cruel? Anyone who has lived on a farm or had to put a pet down knows how unnatural and sometimes painful it feels when a favorite animal dies.

  Will animals live forever in the new system? There's supposed to be no pain, sorrow or crying in the paradise, but I've seen hard men with iron self-control cry like babies when their dog or their horse died. Are we going to become callous or emotionally disconnected from animals? Or will we just become inured to death so it doesn't bother us anymore?

  Or is it all B.S.?

  I know it sounds petty but this one really bugs me. This is just one of many things where I can't reconcile observable reality with our beliefs.

  Either death is natural or it's not. Which is it?
• 

  GoingGoingGone

  I always wondered about that when I was a kid. My mother told me that Adam knew what death was because he saw the animals die. But, um, that wasn't the question...

  I've seen documentaries and read that animals can and do indeed grieve when one of their family members or companions dies. And yet, the JWs teach that only humans have the hope of living forever.

  Yeah, it's all BS.

  GGG
• 

  MadTiger

  You are asking from a perspective implying that they are being held to the same rules as humans.
  
  Same rules? Who said that?
  
  Were they meant to be eternal or immortal?
  
  Or ephemeral playthings with various lifespans?
• 

  Orgull

  @ MadTiger

  I'm not implying that animals be held to the same rule as humans. The absurdity of that idea is the very basis of my problem with this issue.

  Locigally.

  1) Animals die.

  2) Humans die.

  3) Animals and humans are both living souls

  4) Death is a result of sin

  So again my question stands. Why do animals die?

  What I'm really saying is, doesn't it make more sense that maybe death is simply a part of nature and maybe humans and animals all die, not because of sin, but simply because that's what happens naturally?
• 

  MadTiger

  "What I'm really saying is, doesn't it make more sense that maybe death is simply a part of nature and maybe humans and animals all die, not because of sin, but simply because that's what happens naturally?"
  
  
  That's just it: death IS a part of nature, and you are very subject to its power IF YOU ARE A FREE MORAL AGENT WHO DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE GOD'S RULE RIGHT TO RULE.
  
  There are those who have been granted exemption from that, based on faithful service (Jesus Christ post resurrected, angels who didn't stray, 144,000 - those still on earth)
  
  But animals have no way to plead their cases. They are not free moral agents who can serve God consciously out of love and awe.
• 

  RunningMan

  Rover ate a forbidden kibble.
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  LeslieV

  The JW answer is:

  Animals die because they do not have the capacity to worship. Only humans were made in God's image, with the ability to reason, gain knowledge, and worship him.

  I think that like Madtiger says....We all die, because it is natural to all animal and human species.

  Leslie
• 

  Terry

  Such matters of doctrine all come down to two things:
  1.Premise

  2.Definitions

  The premise a particular Theology presents has to remain as general as possible. The "devil" is in the details of the definitions.

  In Science we have Genus and Differentia. The large folder and what goes inside.

  By defining SIN as "falling short" (Hebrew) the premise comes down to this:

  1.Conditional Life vs Conditional Death

  2.Who imputes the condition?

  The creation of humanity presumes several premises.

  1.Humanity is less than God on purpose (having been made that way).

  2.That "less than" state made man mortal.

  3.The source of life (i.e. God) gives and takes life according to His own pleasure/displeasure.

  Animals provide food for other animals and food for humans. Death is built in to the nature of predator/prey.

  Nature itself either reflects God's will or God's displeasure.

  BEFORE THE FALL vs AFTER

  Only a premise which assumes animals would continue living indefinitely will have a problem with the falsifying condition of animal death.

  Humanity dies. Animals die.

  If this is seen as other than natural an explanation becomes necessary.

  The Bible offers but one attempt to explain the death of humans (and, only incidentally: animals)

  Human life is contingent upon obedience, says scripture.

  Therefore, God's opinion and good pleasure are the final arbiter of man's condition.

  Animal life/death follow logically.

  If we assume death to be an evil we have a problem. If death is, in the nature of thing inevitable, it is moot.

  The theology of a particular sect brings to the believer the premise.

  Among JW's it is Jehovah's will that man selectively choose obedience instead of autonomy.

  Therefore the irony presents itself: THE AUTONOMY CHOOSING TO OBEY.

  That is the real problem and not animal death.

  In the Hebrew scriptures animals are barely more than food and utilities. Cruelty was forbidden, however.
• 

  daystar

  You are asking from a perspective implying that they are being held to the same rules as humans.
  
  Same rules? Who said that?
  
  Were they meant to be eternal or immortal?
  
  Or ephemeral playthings with various lifespans?

  This was how I understood it, that the animals didn't matter. They weren't special like us, and so were meant to die anyway, much like the dinosaurs were created by Jehovah, just so they'd die and provide us with such great oil products!

  But we, well, we were created in His image, not like those pesky animals. They were created for our benefit, and thus, expendable.
• 

  Satanus

  Yes, it's all natural. Predators and environmental limitations keep in check the prey populations, and vise versa. We human animals have taken a 'quantum' leap w our vastly enlarged mental capacities. Yet, we still naturally die, as do the other animals. Sin, the bible concept, is a very recent invention. It served a societal purpose of keeping order/control among the jewish and roman populations.

  In meitation you can transcend our animal ego, our animal physical drives, our mental constructs and constraints. You can experience the oneness that we share w the lower animals, the trees, etc. Transcend artificial concepts such as sin.

  S