The Urim and the Thummin

by WTWizard 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Have you ever had a talk about the Urim and the Thummin? Or, perhaps you had to figure out how these items relate to our lives today. Notably, very few people even know what those items are, except for those devout Jews that have studied the Old Testament or those scholars that study the Bible professionally.

    I have noticed that the Watchtower Society places undue emphasis on the Urim and the Thummin as the "deeper things". These were nothing more than sacred copies of portions of the Mosaic Law which the priests and kings had to wear in special cases, and they were read at sacred occasions. The main thing is who gives a &$&@ about these things these days? What difference is knowing the precise details about the Urim and the Thummin going to make toward you getting salvation here and now?

    For sure, when this was first started, it was very important to the Jews. It was read at sacred occasions, and people listening to the reading were subject to those laws. However, it is not important to us now because we are not under the Mosaic law. The Urim and the Thummin are about as important to us now as www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com is to those Jews that needed to know what the Urim and the Thummin said.

    Personally, I think this "deeper material" was intended to start divisions within the congregation. Since it was intended to confuse, people feel that they are never going to have adequate insight on the Scriptures. And the Governing Body will take advantage of that. Study more. Spend more time in the ministry. Rely on us, since you don't even know what the Urim and the Thummin have to do with your salvation today. Well, Governing Body, I have some dismal news for you. I think the Urim and the Thummin is totally a waste of time to discuss now, since it has absolutely NO bearing on our salvation. To tell us that it does matter is promoting your scam and promoting people dependent on others for making decisions. You can take your Urim and your Thummin and shove them.

  • bluebell
    bluebell

    lol you know what i thought of when i read the topic "oh those sticks that moses used to throw to get a yes or a no like a ouiji board kinda thing" completely wrong footed me when i read and remembered what the urim and thummin were, the high priest wore 'em right?

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Yup, it was the high priest who had to deal with them. They are not our problem. I don't even know why, aside to confuse the masses and to make them feel more dependent on the Governing Body for Bible understanding, they would even think of these out-of-date documents as having any importance to us. Yes, they were life and death to the Jews. But for us, they are out of date.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Urim and Thummim

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Urim and Thummim Most scholars suspect that the phrase refers to specific objects involved in divination, though it is not known whether there were two objects - one being the Urim, the other being the Thummim - or whether there was one object with Urim written on one side and Thummim on the other [1] ; a few scholars believe that the phrase refers to abstract qualities which the diviner was supposed to take to heart

    Contents

    Name and Meaning

    (Thummim) is widely considered to be derived from the consonantal root (t-m-m), meaning faultless [2] [3] [4] , while (Urim) has traditionally been taken to derive from a root meaning lights; by taking the phrase allegorically, as meaning revelation and truth, or doctrine and truth (it appears in this form in the Vulgate, in the writing of Jerome, and in the Hexapla) [6] .

    However, although at face value the words are plural, the context suggests they are pluralis intensivus - singular words which are pluralised to enhance their apparant majesty [7] . The singular forms - ur and tumm - have been connected by some early scholars with the Babylonian terms urtu and tamitu, meaning oracle and command, respectively [8] . Many scholars now believe that (Urim) simply derives from the Hebrew term(Arrim), meaning curses, and thus that Urim and Thummim essentially means cursed or faultless, in reference to the deity's view of an accused - in other words that Urim and Thummim concern the question of innocent or guilty? [9] [10] .

    Form and Function

    A passage - 1 Samuel 14:41 - in the Books of Samuel is regarded by biblical scholars as key to understanding the Urim and Thummim [11] ; the passage describes an attempt to identify a sinner via divination, by repeatedly splitting the people into two groups and identifying which group contains the sinner. In the version of this passage in the masoretic text, it merely describes Saul and Jonathan being separated from the rest of the people, and lots being cast between them; the Septuagint version, however, states that Urim would indicate Saul and Jonathan, while Thummim would indicate the people. In the Septuagint, a previous verse [12] uses a phrase which is usually translated as inquired of God, which is significant as the grammatical form of the Hebrew implies that the inquiry was performed by objects being manipulation; scholars view it as evident from these verses and versions that cleromancy was involved, and that Urim and Thummim were the names of the objects being cast [13] .

    The description of the clothing of the Jewish high priest in the Book of Exodus portrays the Urim and Thummim as being put into the sacred breastplate, worn by the high priest over the Ephod [14] . Where the Bible elsewhere describes an Ephod being used for divination, scholars presume that it is referring to use of the Urim and Thummim in conjunction with the Ephod, as the these seem to be intimately connected with it [15] ; similarly where non-prophets are portrayed as askingYahweh for guidance, and the advice isn't described as given by visions, scholars think that Urim and Thummim were the medium implied [16] . In all but two cases [17] , the question is one which is effectively answered by a simple yes or no [18] ; a number of scholars believe that the two exceptions to this pattern, which give more complex answers, were originally also just sequences of yes/no questions, but became corrupted by later editing [19] .

    There is no description of the form of the Urim and Thummim in the passage describing the high priest's vestments, and a number of scholars believe that the author of the passage, which textual scholars attribute to the priestly source, wasn't actually entirely aware of what they were either [20] . Nevertheless, the passage does describe them as being put into the breastplate, which scholars think implies they were objects put into some sort of pouch within it, and then, while out of view, one (or one side, if there the Urim and Thummim was a single object) was chosen by touch and withdrawn or thrown out [21] ; since the Urim and Thummim were put inside this pouch, they were presumably small and fairly flat, and were possibly tablets of wood or of bone [22] . With the view of scholars that Urim essentially means guilty and Thummim essentially means innocent, this would imply that the purpose of the Urim and Thummim was an ordeal to confirm or deny suspected guilt; if the Urim was selected it meant guilt, while selection of the Thummim would mean innocence.

    According to Islamic sources, there was a similar form of divination among the Arabs prior to the beginning of Islam [23] . There, two arrow shafts (without heads or feathers), on one of which was written command and the other prohibition or similar, were kept in a container, and stored in the Kaaba at Mecca [24] ; whenever someone wished to know whether to get married, go on a journey, or to make some other similar decision, one of the Kaaba's guardians would randomly pull one of the arrow shafts out of the container, and the word written upon it was said to indicate the will of the god concerning the matter in question [25] . Sometimes a third, blank, arrow shaft would be used, to represent the refusal of the deity to give an answer [26] .

    According to classical rabbinical literature, in order for the Urim and Thummim to give an answer, it was first necessary for the individual to stand facing the fully dressed high priest, and vocalise the question briefly and in a simple way, though it wasn't necessary for it to be loud enough for anyone else to hear it [27] . The Talmudic rabbis, who had never witnessed the Urim and Thummim (according to their own statements), argued that Urim and Thummim were words written on the sacred breastplate [28] ; according to someone [citation needed] , the breastplate had to be activated by taking a parchment with the Tetragrammaton inscribed upon it, and inserting the parchment into a slot in the breastplate [citation needed] . Most of the Talmudic rabbis, and Josephus, following the belief that Urim meant lights, argued that divination by Urim and Thummim involved questions being answered by great rays of light shining out of certain jewels on the breastplate; each jewel was taken to represent different letters, and the sequence of lighting thus would spell out an answer (though there were 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet, and only 12 jewels on the breastplate) [29] [30] [31] ; two Talmudic rabbis, however, argued that the jewels themselves moved in a way that made them stand out from the rest, or even moved themselves into groups to form words [32] .

    History of Use

    A passage of the Books of Samuel mentions three methods of divine communication - dreams, prophets, and the Urim and Thummim [33] ; the first two of these are also mentioned copiously in Assyrian and Babylonian literature, and such literature also mentions Tablets of Destiny, which are similar in some ways to the Urim and Thummim [34] . The Tablets of Destiny had to rest on the breast of deities mediating between the other gods and mankind in order to function [35] , while the Urim and Thummim had to rest within the breastplate of the priest mediating between Yahweh and mankind [36] . Marduk was said to have put his seal on the Tablets of Destiny [37] , while the Israelite breastplate had a jewelled stone upon it for each of the Israelite tribes, which may derive from the same principle [38] . Like the Urim and Thummim, the Tablets of Destiny came into use when the fate of king and nation was concerned [39] . According to an increasing majority of archaeologists, the Israelites emerged as a subculture from within Canaanite society, and not as an invading force from outside, and therefore it is only natural for them to have used similar religious practices to other Semitic nations [40] , and scholars suspect that the concept of Urim and Thummim was originally derived from the Tablets of Destiny [41] .

    The first biblical reference to Urim and Thummim is the description in the Book of Exodus concerning the high priest's vestments [42] ; the chronologically earliest passage mentioning them, according to textual scholars, is in the Book of Hosea [43] , where it is implied, by reference to the Ephod, that the Urim and Thummim were fundamental elements in the popular form of the Israelite religion [44] , in the mid 8th century BC [45] . Consulting the Urim and Thummim was said to be permitted for determining territorial boundaries, and was said to be required, in addition to permission from the king or a prophet, if there was an intention to expand Jerusalem or the Temple in Jerusalem [46] [47] [48] [49] ; however, these rabbinical sources did question, or at least tried to justify, why Urim and Thummim would be required when a prophet was also present [50] . The classical rabbinical writers argued that the Urim and Thummim were only permitted to be consulted by very prominent figures such as army generals, the most senior of court figures, and kings, and the only questions which could be raised were those which were asked for the benefit of the people as a whole [51] .

    Although Josephus argues that the Urim and Thummim continued to be used until the era of the Maccabees [52] , Talmudic sources are unanimous in agreeing that the Urim and Thummim were lost much earlier, when Jerusalem was sacked by the Babylonians [53] [54] [55] . In a passage from the part of the Book of Ezra which overlaps with the Book of Nehemiah, it is mentioned that individuals who were unable to prove, after the Babylonian captivity had ended, that they were descended from the priesthood before the captivity began, were required to wait until priests in possession of Urim and Thummim were discovered [56] ; this would appear to confirm the Talmudic view that the Urim and Thummim had by then been lost [57] [58] [59] . Indeed, since the priestly source, which textual scholars date to a couple of centuries prior to the captivity, doesn't appear to know what the Urim and Thummim looked like, and there is no mention of the Urim and Thummim in the deuteronomic history beyond the death of David, biblical scholars suspect that use of them decayed some time before the Babylonian conquest [60] , probably as a result of the growing influence at the time of prophets [61] .

    In other words; it was an ancient form of the modern day MAGIC 8 BALL!
  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    TERRY! GOOD JOB ON THE RESEARCH.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    All that for history purposes. If anyone is interested in Bible history or Jewish history, this is valuable to know. However, for the average Dub to have to know this in order to give meaningful comments at the meetings is not reasonable. It is historical importance only and out of date. I guess the Watchtower Society wants people to be confused so they can present the illusion of needing them.

    I prefer independent research on things I am interested in. Not that it is too deep for me to grasp: most of the Watchtower topics on the "deeper things" are not worth the time doing the research on, and especially using the Watchtower's slanted views on things. I'm not sure I would want to trust their views on these deeper things when they are ever-changing on such simple things as oral sex and organ transplants.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Of much greater relevance to our lives today are the Uma and the Thurman:

    alt

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