Agnosticism / Atheism / Theism

Twisty

Hey all

So once we open our mind to things outside of WTland we couldn't stop just at looking at Doctrines etc.

Recently i have found a great interest in logically and rationally exploring other options, actually thanks to TheStumbler, Terry, New Chapter and a few others all at some point made a comment that got me thinking.

So after decades of having my brain pickled in a jar of WT, i dont have much info on the above topics.

Nothing wrong with my reasoning skills I'm just down on knowledge.

My understanding so far to prove Atheism to myself i will need to prove 100% there never was a God at all, I can't really say "I'm an Atheist till proven otherwise." Surely if i mention there is a chance i could be proven otherwise, there is a chance there is a God which makes me an Agnostic?

Maybe the only difference between Agnosticism and Atheism is the strength in the belief of your own rightness?

Like i said I dont know much these are my thoughts and probably are wrong, so dont point your ICBM this way.

So i would like some help in perusing alternatives to the biblical creation and with that knowledge i could come to a conclusion Atheism/Agnosticism.

I have the conventional Theism side covered but if anybody recommends anything i would not have come across as a JW..like maybe the Apocryphal books or Quran if they have anyhting to give a better idea of the origin of life, open for suggestions here.

Also any thoughts are appreciated, the ones that start with I feel Jesus/Am Jesus/Talk to Jesus, not so much.

My personality type is INTJ (Scientist) So any constructive comments will be appreciated if they are logical and rational if you are for Theism i would expect you have thoroughly researched both sides of the spectrum to come to a conclusion and not just a cursory examination and follow the fluffy feeling in your heart.

I am still biased towards a belief in God but I find it very hard to believe he is the god of the bible or that he is omni potent/benevolent.

Your thoughts please and i'll discuss and research as time permits.

Thanks Twisty

Witness My Fury

It's a journey, I gave the bible and jesus ample opportunity during my earlier research phase while exiting the JW mindf@ck... I've considered myself agnostic (fence sitter?) for about the last 18 months or so, ...but am now finding myself edging into atheism.

It seems from research that Bible God is utter bullshit. Which now explains some of the glaring contradictions between the nasty OT God and the Father of Jesus as depicted in the NT. To have been so blind as to believe the bible is the unerring Word of God is a painful admission of failure to do due diligence before baptism. But I have the excuse of being born in and baptised at 16 and no internet in 1985 as my excuse for such a failure.

My research continues (as does many peoples here). I go were the evidence leads me, and apart from some form of divine intervention or revelation to change my viewpoint then it is away from the nasty Bible God.

Try some of the Christopher Hitchens debates on youtube if you haven't seen any..

still thinking

Once I came to the conclusion that if there is a god he couldn't be the bible god I really started to struggle with a belief in God at all. To me, if Jesus was really Gods son he couldn't be describing the god of the OT as LOVE. I am not 100% convinced that there isn't one...but I'm more convinced there isn't than is. I am keeping my options open. So will be interested to see what others say.

Twisty, What type of God do you believe in if not the bible God? And why?

freydo

It's all based on igoring the first 4 Commandments, particularly 3 and 4, and establishing one's own standards of acceptable thinking. Ignoring those and terminal stupidty takes over.

Terry

A simply stated as I can make it:

1. When we investigate we can't begin without stating our prejudices to ourselves first. What would we LIKE to conclude before we start searching? Where do we WANT to end up? That is your prejudice. Being Objective is almost emotionally impossible.

2.Objectively speaking, we can't start out KNOWING; we have to start out admitting we DON'T know. That is AGNOSTIC. It says, "I don't know--yet".

3.Both Atheism and Theism (or even Deism) is a declaration of KNOWING.

4.You can't prove a negative. Nobody can. Nobody ever will. Conversely, the greater the Claim the greater the Proof needed to support that claim.

5.Root out PRE-supposed ideas(presuppositions) and find a way to test your PREMISE before begin your investigation.

6.False systems can be logically coherent. The true test is comparison with Reality. Contradiction with reality is the most important test.

7.Red Flag: becoming convinced is more a measure of your threshold of intelligence than it is of the facts. Example: in chess, a person of a 2500 rating will ALWAYS beat a person of an 1850 rating. We are all limited by our mental tools, proficiency in thinking and our grasp of logical fallacy.

A life of the mind takes discipline, good thinking habits, rooting out magic thinking and a KEEN AWARENESS of the use of language.

Twisty

WMF: Will check Chrisropher Hitchens, thanks.

Still thinking: There are some things in nature including aspects of humanity that i find hard not to attribute some form of intelligent design, but I haven't explored the other side yet, so these points I may still understand within a logical Atheistic framework we will see.

Freydo: " Ignoring those and terminal stupidty takes over." I'm not quite getting your point are you speaking from first hand experience or have I already broken commandments 1 through 4?

Terry: Here is a challenge try for even simpler statements. I want to end up with more knowledge on the Origin of life. Looking at your post makes English look like my 2nd language instead of first. Thanks for your statements.

Phizzy

I started my journey by comparing WT theology with what the bible actually says, I found the WT/JW theology to be in error.

I then went through a phase of looking at other christian sects, Which was right? I concluded all were made by men, were not "of God"

I then looked long and hard at the Bible, was it inerrant ? No. Was it the word of God or inspired in any way ? No.

I then looked for proof, satisfactory proof that would bear the scrutiny of science and a court of law, that there in fact is/was a God.

I found no such proof.

I am now a Rationalist/Humanist/Realist open to investigating any evidence or ideas that will expand my mind, increase my knowledge etc

Having been proved so very very wrong in all I believed as a JW, I have no fear of being wrong now, so will examine anything offered, what I do have a fear of is, wasting what remains of my life believing in something that is false.

Why does it matter ? because every wrong move I have made in my life has come from believing something false, I would be a lot better off financially and emotionally, and so would my dear family, if I had always been a rationalist.

Ding

Twisty,

Lee Strobel's The Case for a Creator has scientific stuff in favor of the theism side. If you don't like Strobel's book, the bibliography lists a number of other resources.

Knowsnothing

Twisty, start with this. How old is man? This, for me, is the simple proof that I need in order to either believe or not believe in the Bible, as God's word.

The unsettling answer to the Origin of Life is that in our life time, we just might not get there 100%. All we have now are theories that are frankly unprovable (I speak of theories of Abiogenesis). There is evolution and such, but an exact picture of how life came to be is practically impossible. The farthest any of us will get on the Origin of Life is conjecture at best.

If that isn't satisfying to you and your world view, then you might want to look at religion for what it offers, but not as reality.

Twisty

Well said Phizzy, I feel quite similarly although I'm only on your fourth point.

I will definitely have a look Strobel's Book, thanks Ding.

If the theories are unprovable, I would hope to at least gravitate to the one that makes the most sense.

Twisty

Agnosticism / Atheism / Theism

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