I would like to see proof of this Rand Corp stuff. Can anyone direct me? I will be discussing this with a friend soon and wanted to make sure it's not hype. Thanks if you can help.
Is there proof WTS owns shares in weapons?
by bluesapphire 9 Replies latest jw friends
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nelly136
this any help?
nelly
kent has more stuff on his sitehttp://www.secinfo.com/dVgzt.61Fc.htm
John G. Robertson [1] [2] Chairman of the Board, President and 5,676,050 60.72%
Chief Executive Officer
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The Watchtower Society [1] [3] 5,367,900 57.42%
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James McCann [1] [4] 5,367,900 57.42%
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Rand Energy Group Inc. [1] [5] 5,367,900 57.42%
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nelly136
test
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chasson
hi Nelly,
It seems that REGI don't develop any military application or products ?
I seems that they works on compressor and turbines
For example:
"We are a development stage company engaged in the business of developing and
commercially exploiting an improved axial vane type rotary engine known as the
Rand Cam/Direct Charge Engine (the "RC/DC Engine"). "http://www.secinfo.com/duvJ5.4FaTx.htm#jff
It would be interesting to know when Wathctower has been given the share in this company.
Bye
Charles
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bj
WATCHTOWER CONNECTION
Jehovah's Witnesses in their book Revelation - Its Grand Climax is at Hand! (1988) p. 264, par. 21, stated: "In contrast, Babylonish religion often has unsavory links with big business. For example, in 1987 the Albany Times Union reported that the financial administrator of the Catholic archdiocese of Miami, Florida, U.S.A., admitted to the church's owning stocks in companies that make nuclear weapons, R-rated movies, and cigarettes."
Doing so, they forget the following Biblical principal: "Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother's eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Allow me to extract the straw from your own eye'; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother's eye." - Matthew 7: 3-5 NWT.
Professor M. James Penton, in his book Apocalypse Delayed page 230, wrote: "The society [WTS] has regularly invested money in stocks for some years. In Rutherford's day stock markets were regarded negatively as part and parcel of greedy, industrial capitalism or big business. But since the judge's death his successors have become far more sympathetic to capitalism and see no reason why they should not invest savings in stock markets. Yet because most ordinary Witnesses still regard the stock markets as part of this 'doomed old world,' the society is very careful not to let the faithful know much about such financial activities. Only under sharp questioning from a few of their concerned brethren have Witness officials occasionally done so. It is easy to tell that this is happening though from statements in the society's literature which tactfully suggest that investing in stocks is perfectly moral." (see for example Awake! 22 October 1961, pp. 21-22; 8 February 1962, pp. 21-23; 8 October 2000, pp. 25-27)
*****Watchtower Society own Bomb Factory???
http://www.machynlleth.freeserve.co.uk/wts_bombfactory.htm
(This site gives the reader a first brief glance on the topic.)
*****
RAND CAM ENGINE CORP (RCEC)
owned by: 50% Watchtower Society
34% James McCann
16% Misc.RAND ENERGY GROUP INC (REGI)
owned by: 51% REG Technologies Inc.
49% Rand Cam Engine Corp.*****
http://www.tenkwizard.com/filing.php?repo=tenk&ipage=176646&num=9&exp=watchtower&doc=1&g=
(if it's not a 9 try g)(The above site confirm that REGI is 49% owned by RCEC, which RCEC is 50% owned by the WTS. And 34% by James McCann who donated the previous 50% to the WTS)
*****
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/922330/0001085037-00-000333.txt
(go under: SECURITY OWNERSHIP OF CERTAIN BENEFICIAL OWNERS AND MANAGEMENT. Once again this site proof the WTS owns 50% in RAND CAM ENGINE CORP. and which owns 49% of REGI)
*****
http://www.secinfo.com/dVgzt.51xv.htm
(This site is about REGI. If you go under: PRODUCTS it gives you information about James McCann's involvment such as 20 October 1986 or 30 August 1983. It shows also that the company is involved in producing RC/DC.
Reading further down under DIESEL ENGINE (June 21, 1999) you find this interesting statement: "This engine [RC/DC] is being designed as a general purpose power plant for military and commercial applications."
Under: MARKETING it continue: "The company's current objective is to complete and test the compressor and diesel engine prototypes. Based on the successful testing, the prototypes will be used for presentation purposes to potential license and joint venture partners. The company will be making presentations to the military which could result in additional government funding if the diesel engine prototype meets with its approval."
Under AGGREGATE OPTION EXERCISES IN LAST FISCAL YEAR ... item ii, shows that the WTS who is the third share holder owns 5,367,900 and James McCann who is the fourth share holder same amount. It dates 31 July, 2000 which confirms at least till this date the WTS shares .
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mustang
This one has really been beat to death.
H2O has undergone several iterations since this first appeared on there over a year ago.
What it really amounts to is an apparent GIFT by a wealthy industrialist who is an interested person, if not a JW.
Please note that it is NON-VOTING STOCK. The WTS can only collect
money by dividends and seems to be prohibited from selling the
stock, at the present time. The owner retains voting control by proxy. (This is a common ploy to tax shelters.)This person seems to also own another company that DOES do some sort of defense products.
Like the INTERLOCKING DIRECTORATES of the old days, one person sits on both boards. That one person retains control. The only connection into the second, truly defense corporations is the donor, not the WTS.
The product of the RAND company seems to be an innovative type of hybrid Diesel engine. This item is not commonly used and does not seem to be in production. (I investigated a similar machine 30 years ago; it was over 60 years old and never went into production. There are too many established competing machines for either of these newer ones to be economically feasible. All the original Diesel techniques have been ESTABLISHED for over a 100 years.)
I am qualified to render an opinion as an Industrial Engineer. This engine appears to be a "white elephant". I see no compelling reason to order one for a plant installation, at this time. That includes questionable availability.
What is the point here? One, the donor gains by using an idle asset as a tax shelter.
But he must retain control of this item and the rest of his 'empire'.
Two, it is only speculation, but by making this magnanimous gift, he has purchased 'absolution' for being involved in the defense industry.
This is similar to a wealthy alumni donating a 'wing' to an university.Many people have done a 'rush to judgment' and assumed that WTS is 'building bombs'. I doubt that any JW has ever seen the bomb side of this matter, and perhaps not even the side that they have been ceded.
Again, on the speculative side, there was some reference to a court case over DISPUTED OWNERSHIP of this stock. This item only surfaced once, last year. I haven't seen it since.
This whole matter is perennial; it comes up every year, like grass in springtime.
Mustang
PS. This Rand (Rand Cam) does not seem to be connected with THE RAND CORPORATION (Research ANd Development Corp., the military think tank).
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bj
Mustang,
Thank you for your very interesting information. My question is, as REGI contribute to military purpose, then why the WTS accepted the shares? I don't believe they do so without checking all the information!
And don't you think ALL JW members should know how THEIR money is being used instead of learning things from outside source!!!Joe
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mustang
REGI itself does not seem to contribute to the military purpose. IF REGI is only the engine, IT CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO ANYTHING. It only absorbs time, money, staff and other resources. I believe it to be a "white elephant".
Remember, it COULD be used as a military product OR a commercial prod-uct. From what I have seen of its technical description, I see no rea-son for the military to rush out and switch over to it. Unless some-thing is specifically geared to their requirements, the military will watch for its success in commercial application first.
I just decommissioned three Diesel generators totaling nearly 2 mega-watts of power. I currently operate, maintain and install/relocate a dozen other non-Diesel generators. I simply don't see these things on the market. The up and coming 'hot ticket' is small turbines, includ-ing modified jet aircraft systems.
IF this engine was a 'world beater' in emissions AND there was a sweep-ing mandated environmental decree, this engine could 'take off'. In that case, the WTS is sitting on a gold mine.
On the other hand, it could languish for another 100 years. In that case, my opinion of 'white elephant' holds.
What is the WTS spending on this? Remember, this is a DONATION. 25$ a year for a safe-deposit box, some minor burdened overhead time from the Legal Department and an occasional phone call sounds about right.
Yes, JW's should know about this. But, you are likely aware of how the 'chain of command' and authority structure goes over there.
The conventional Annual Reports companies generate does not seem to ex-ist for WTS. Perhaps this is discussed as a one-liner at the Annual Meetings of the Corporations. They are not obligated to report this to anyone, except perhaps at the Annual Meeting. Since the shares are privately held and seem to be closely controlled that is doubtful.
Don't hold your breath waiting to see it in the WT.
Bottom-line: tying this to the military is a 'stretch' and approaches wishful thinking. This seems to border on ethically questionable, but is legally constrained till 'Hell won't have it'. I believe that sums up the Standard Operating Procedure over there.
Mustang
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freeman
What was it that deep throat said? ‘Follow the money’.
If you do some research, you will find that the WTBTS does not make bombs, however it seems to be a fact that they do profit from the technology used in so-called smart-bombs. Smart bomb imaging technology is owned, marketed, and distributed by a Watchtower owned company. No the WTBTS does not have any real control over what is done with this technology, they are a silent partner, they just collect the profits. What is their crime? Their crime if you wish to call it that is that they do not just walk away from any ownership in companies that are involved with the production of smart-bombs. And why not? Because to do so would cost them millions of dollars in revenue. Since they cannot just sell this stock on the open market, they would have to, as I previously stated, walk away from it.
Their crime my friends is that once again they are putting money ahead of principle. Yes they will chastise and possibly disfellowship someone for working in the defense industry, but they will not divest themselves of the profits reaped from it when it would mean a substation loss. Even political parties often return donations when it comes from an unsavory source, but not the Watchtower. Can you say HIPOCRIT!
So you want to learn more about the Watchtower Smart-Bomb connection, do you? Then just point your browser at www.hotbot.com, and search on the words “watchtower bomb”, (without quotes), follow the links, learn about the companies involved and what they produce and who owns them. It is all a matter of public record. Do your own research, draw your own conclusions.
freeman
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bluesapphire
Thank you all for your replies. Looks like I have a lot of reading and research to do. I just don't want to make an accusation that cannot be substantiated.
It looks really bad for the WTS in my opinion. The reason is that my husband as a painter could not as a JW take an account from the Catholic Church down the street to paint their rectory (the priest's house). This could cost him thousands in revenue yearly from not only the $$ but from the referrals he would lose. Yet the WTS can own shares in companies who have connections (even as remote as they may or may not be) to making military weapons.
If I stick to this reasoning with my friend and also my sister, do you think I can take it somewhere with them?