I found this one on the Gene Expression blog. Does religion confer evolutionary advantage?
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875666
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| BurnTheShips | The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
I found this one on the Gene Expression blog. Does religion confer evolutionary advantage? http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875666 | ||
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by BurnTheShips:
Correct formatting by BurnTheShips: Correct formatting | |
| Awakened07 | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Thanks. Well, the article pretty much says it all, so there's not much room for my comment. I've thought this ever since I started accepting evolution; that religion (among other things) must have an evolutionary advantage. It can be as basic as - on a large population level - that a belief in an afterlife as a reward for good behavior will both make one behave better towards others (especially within the group), which will benefit the group, and also that the same belief gives one more strength to carry on through life's hard struggles. And those two are just a tip of the iceberg (more examples in the article). In fact, if one accepts evolution; how can faith not be an advantageous meme? | ||
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| hamilcarr | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
You may like it or not, but because evolution has allowed for 7 million preaching witnesses, even the Watch Tower must have an evolutionary advantage. Maybe a member of the Governing Body had to be put into the scanner --- new scientific grounds to be developed. | ||
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| funkyderek | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
This thread is such a waste of time! Just kidding, Burn A good article. A couple of things that are important to note. Just because religion may be useful that doesn't make it true. And perhaps more importantly, traits that conferred a survival advantage in the past may not do so in the future. Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel Dennett covers some of the issues discussed here. | ||
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| R.Crusoe | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Fascinating Stuff! I wonder if, knowing how in control one can be of large groups via 'invisible powers' or 'divine knowledge', the evolution science and of religion were not highly likely preserves of human evolution ? That is to say, unless one were not a follower of large groups of humans who enjoyed the support of the masses, one were likely to be overthrown and wiped out by them, thus preserving their philosophies and beliefs through successive generations! And so today we have beliefs which have successfully evolved as 'parasites' of group belief via humans best placed for surviving. A sort of evolution of what can be shown to exist alongside an evolution of what cannot! | ||
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| DanTheMan | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Interesting article, thanks for sharing.
It really does bum me out a little that because of my experiences, I could never be a religious person again. There are benefits that religion confers that you just can't get anywhere else - the intoxicating sense of purpose & cameraderie being two that were probably at the top of the list of what I (unconsciously) found so appealing about the dubs.
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| BurnTheShips | Re: Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
A good article. A couple of things that are important to note. Just because religion may be useful that doesn't make it true . I think it was you (maybe not) that once asserted that our mental sense and perception map to reality because if they didn't we would be unfit to survive in the environment. Burn | ||
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| R.Crusoe | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Dan the man - as a youth you may have had more than just cameraderie if you were frotunate enough to be in demand by the worlds most attractive pron stars but it doesn't necessarily mean god is on your side! Though how, in that situation, could you not feel he was? | ||
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| SacrificialLoon | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
One thing the article didn't touch on that I think would be interesting is to compare the birth rates of religious vs. non/not so religious people. It seems to be the case that birthrates among religious people is higher. | ||
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| funkyderek | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
BurnTheShips: I think it was you (maybe not) that once asserted that our mental sense and perception map to reality because if they didn't we would be unfit to survive in the environment. Possibly it was. However, if I didn't qualify that with various caveats, then I should have. We can only ever perceive an approximation of reality, which will usually be just as good as it needs to be and no better. | ||
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| R.Crusoe | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
It falls to the powers who exist to compete over the uneducated masses for their 'belief' or 'following' in order to feed the next generation more of the same! The problem so far is that ill-logic, tied into religious dogma, has been passed through successive generations to millions with no access to alternative information and so the cycle is unbroken in masses of the Earths populace! Time for changes is here but will not easily be relinquished by long standing powers who believe their systems of human governance are superior to the alternatives in limiting anarchy! | ||
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| VoidEater | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Religion confers a survivability advantage, which may be the same thing. "Religion", though, needs to be seen in a somewhat wider scope than the typical connotation, though..."religion" in this case can mean "secular humanism". | ||
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| Galileo | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
A fantastic article, thank you for posting it. | ||
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| Sirona | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Very interesting article, thanks. I'm particularly fascinated by the psysiological changes which occurred in the experiment with the groups reading the 23rd Psalm. Sirona | ||
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| hillary_step | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
It is an ambitious shopping list. Fortunately, other researchers have blazed a trail. Patrick McNamara, for example, is the head of the Evolutionary Neurobehaviour Laboratory at Boston University's School of Medicine. He works with people who suffer from Parkinson's disease. This illness is caused by low levels of a messenger molecule called dopamine in certain parts of the brain. In a preliminary study, Dr McNamara discovered that those with Parkinson's had lower levels of religiosity than healthy individuals, and that the difference seemed to correlate with the disease's severity. He therefore suspects a link with dopamine levels and is now conducting a follow-up involving some patients who are taking dopamine-boosting medicine and some of whom are not. It is not news that a religious experience can be triggered by chemical means, and by electrical stimulation of certain areas of the brain. The resulting sensation is one that those who claim to have had a 'religious experience', often accompanied by emotional feelings of well-being, hold in common. Measurements taken of the human brain during a religious fervor differ not at all between Christian, Indian Fakir, or Voodo ecstacy. What does differ is territory and culture. Those who have had 'Christ' enter their heart, were they living in India, would merely rename the concept to suit their culture. A religionist may claim that God can easily manipulate the chemsitry of the mind, but they have a harder job explaining why what they expereinced has been experienced by the primitives for tens of thousands of years. HS edited for horrendous spelling issues. | ||
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by hillary_step:
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| R.Crusoe | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Like other aspects of 'feel good' it does not prove the reality as an essential and divine altruism. It is all about positive and negative cycles of human experience and the reality these impose on the humans experiencing them. Many things about being humans release 'feel good' and repetetive exposure to such experiences has a cumulative growth peculiar to the individual but with many predictable characteristics. The 23rd psalm may well conjure up notions of removing all negatives currently within the individuals experience in some clever Santa construct? I recall reading sociologists reports about the impact of the industrial revolution on human groupings and how the stresses imposed lead to very predictable accumulations of negative 'pockets' of existence. The ethos of education also had similar sets of predictables and prompted changes in the focus for the regular person despite some individuals being disposables of whatever system came into fruition. The period of change is one which has its victims as well as successes by the very nature of most human activities. Unfortunately few or them extrapolate the positive 'pockets' since these are so often taken for granted by those reaping the rewards of the system they proliferate - with examples such as royalty whose multi generational preserved privelaged reality is a far cry from that of those who struggle from one to the next in responding to the recommendations of such classes of governance and political affiliations. And so divinity, with its perfect ideologies of justice and equality for all in some eutopian dream, may well inspire all who aspire to it but the very nature of humanity is a very different reality and ultimately I suspect the best mode for all humans to function in is one which works with the nature that spurned them, rather than against it, but as we all know there are many benefits to the fortunate minorities in doing the reverse which is bound to perpetuate conflicts of one sort or another at a whole series of levels, from human social groups to the very environment that supports us all! To insist upon an ideal is hardly plausible! And the ideal will warrant removal of privelage from those who have it so from the outset, a war against the powerful is its mandate with predictable resistance! And so religion, in a way, is a delusional distraction from the reality before us which permits humans who may be experiencing negative cycles to let go of them and explore the luxury of more positive outcomes in a time period outside the one they currently find oppressive in various ways, which is highly likely why godspeak seems a better place than the one many of us have as a reality.
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| BurnTheShips | Re: Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Dr Azari's PET study, together with one by Andrew Newberg of the University of Pennsylvania, which used single-photon emission computed tomography done on Buddhist monks, and another by Mario Beauregard of the University of Montreal, which put Carmelite nuns in a magnetic-resonance-imaging machine, all suggest that religious activity is spread across many parts of the brain. That conflicts not only with the limbic-system theory but also with earlier reports of a so-called God Spot that derived partly from work conducted on epileptics. These reports suggested that religiosity originates specifically in the brain's temporal lobe, and that religious visions are the result of epileptic seizures that affect this part of the brain. It looks more like a whole-brain phenomenon, at least if we are looking at it as a purely physical manifestation. Presumably some parts oof the population will not manifest this as much as others, and some will be on the other side of the curve. Which is maladaptive? Burn | ||
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| R.Crusoe | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
That is interesting BTS! I wonder if it is distinguishable which aspects of activity are taking place for all manner of psycho positives, from orgasm to meditation? I wonder if a science is able, right now to decipher the aspects of brain activity which are common to each or distinct? That would be a beautiful Venn diagram!! I know that being a believer in a Biblical god and having notions of salvation from all the worlds ills does posit a mild transcendent state of mind - albeit too easily removed by a meeting at the local KH (what irony) And I also know that nature based faiths, if embraced by ones soul and inner self (absent any Biblical god or satan) can create sensations in the body which are uncontrollable - like shivering in the snow but with added value! Most confusing but undeniable and minus any drugs (alcohol is my only vice - or temporary self harm/escapism) So I find the above stuff fascinating and I must confess I know little about any of it save that which I feel in my inner self! Mmmm????????? | ||
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| Dogpatch | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
I have had a subscription to The Economist for a couple of years now. I must say I really like the magazine. It is more European-based in its perspective, which is vital and you live in the United States and you're surrounded by fundamentalists and Republicans who see this country as "God's country" rather than just a small part of a stream of human history. (Hey, I LOVE the U.S., but life goes on, people!) My foxy neighbor used to work for The Economist in London as a reporter for a few years, covering hot spots in the Middle East. If you want a FRESH outlook that is NOT U.S., try it! I think Witnesses go through many stages when they leave the Watchtower if they're intellectuals or intellectually inclined. The first one is of course criticism, anger, and attack for many, followed by a lashing out in revenge on the part of some. Anger often has to run its course. For others who still want a religious experience and want to believe in God, anger is not usually their big concern. It wasn't for me. Plus, I was lucky not to have been abused by the system, which is a major plus. Some ex-JWs are not angry at all. They just want something better.As the ex-Witness who is determined to get satisfyinganswers progresses in a non-religious direction, or in a fundamentalistic direction, he/she often adopts a simplistic binary view of life. Black and white; cult or non-cult. The one who demands control over their worldview, whether it be deity-based or atheistic, often becomes an iconoclast, who in their efforts to get a grip on reality and what reality is, will tend to posterize the world as black and white. To them it is necessary for the world to be black and white to survive as life is otherwise dark, cold and ends in death. I remember that scenario when I was 20 years old, living in Canoga Park, Calif. and swallowing everything their "truth" book had to say about life in our view of eternity. I was deathly afraid it WAS NOT TRUE, yet hoping it was with all my heart. The emotional demands of the situation required that it be true. Otherwise, I was lost completely! Lost child in a very confusing world. For the insecure, the quest is to establish as true a new worldview that one has decided to adopt for one's own psychological security. For the one who is relatively secure and is not interested in so much a fantasy world view or simple answers, and (God forbid!) ENJOYS the mystery and complexity of life, learning is an ongoing experience that never peaks and disappoints. Evolutionary "genius" if you ask me. :-)) Randy http://dogpatchmb.blogspot.com/
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| Dogpatch | Re: The Science of Religion-recent Economist Article | |
Select Quotes from “The Denial of Death” by Ernest Becker An animal who gets his feeling of worth symbolically has to minutely compare himself to those around him, to make sure he doesn't come off second-best. Sibling rivalry is a critical problem that reflects the basic human condition: it is not that children are vicious, selfish, or domineering. It is that they so openly express man's tragic destiny: he must des¬perately justify himself as an object of primary value in the uni¬verse; he must stand out, be a hero, make the biggest possible con¬tribution to world life, show that he counts more than anything or anyone else. It doesn't matter whether the cultural hero-system is frankly magical, religious, and primitive or secular, scientific, and civilized. It is still a mythical hero-system in which people serve in order to earn a feeling of primary value, of cosmic specialness, of ultimate usefulness to creation, of unshakable meaning. The first thing we have to do with heroism is to lay bare its under¬side, show what gives human heroics its specific nature and impetus. Here we introduce directly one of the great rediscoveries of modern thought: that of all things that move man, one of the principal ones is his terror of death. After Darwin the problem of death as an evolutionary one came to the fore, and many thinkers immediately saw that it was a major psychological problem for man.2 They also very quickly saw what real heroism was about, as Shaler wrote just at the turn of the century:3 heroism is first and foremost a reflex of the terror of death. We admire most the courage to face death; we give such valor our highest and most constant adoration; it moves us deeply in our hearts because we have doubts about how brave we ourselves would be. When we see a man bravely facing his own extinction we rehearse the greatest victory we can imagine. And so the hero has been the center of human honor and acclaim since probably the beginning of specifically human evolution. But even before that our primate ancestors deferred to others who were extrapowerful and courageous and ignored those who were cowardly. Man has elevated animal courage into a cult. Anthropological and historical research also began, in the nine¬teenth century, to put together a picture of the heroic since primi¬tive and ancient times. The hero was the man who could go into the spirit world, the world of the dead, and return alive. He had his descendants in the mystery cults of the Eastern Mediterranean, which were cults of death and resurrection. The divine hero of each of these cults was one who had come back from the dead. And as we know today from the research into ancient myths and rituals, Christianity itself was a competitor with the mystery cults and won out—among other reasons—because it, too, featured a healer with supernatural powers who had risen from the dead. The great triumph of Easter is the joyful shout "Christ has risen!", an echo of the same joy that the devotees of the mystery cults enacted at their ceremonies of the victory over death. These cults, as G. Stanley Hall so aptly put it, were an attempt to attain "an immunity bath" from the greatest evil: death and the dread of it.4 All historical reli¬gions addressed themselves to this same problem of how to bear the end of life. Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism performed the ingenious trick of pretending not to want to be reborn, which is a sort of negative magic: claiming not to want what you really want most.5
After all, Kierkegaard was hardly a disinterested scientist. He gave his psychological description because he had a glimpse of freedom for man. He was a theorist of the open personality, of human possibility. In this pursuit, present-day psychiatry lags far behind him. Kierkegaard had no easy idea of what "health" is. But he knew what it was not: it was not normal adjustment—anything but that, as he has taken such excruciating analytical pains to show us. To be a "normal cultural man" is, for Kierkegaard, to be sick—whether one knows it or not: "there is such a thing as fictitious health."38 Nietzsche later put the same thought: "Are there perhaps —a question for psychiatrists—neuroses of health?" But Kierkegaard not only posed the question, he also answered it. If health is not "cultural normality," then it must refer to something else, must point beyond man's usual situation, his habitual ideas. Mental health, in a word, is not typical, but ideal-typical. It is something far beyond man, something to be achieved, striven for, something that leads man beyond himself. The "healthy" person, the true individual, the self-realized soul, the "real" man, is the one who has transcended himself. Kierkegaard's torment was the direct result of seeing the world as it really is in relation to his situation as a creature. The prison of one's character is painstakingly built to deny one thing and one thing alone: one's creatureliness. The creatureliness is the terror. Once admit that you are a defecating creature and you invite the primeval ocean of creature anxiety to flood over you. But it is more than creature anxiety, it is also man's anxiety, the anxiety that re¬sults from the human paradox that man is an animal who is con¬scious of his animal limitation. Anxiety is the result of the percep¬tion of the truth of one's condition. What does it mean to be a self-conscious animal? The idea is ludicrous, if it is not monstrous. It means to know that one is food for worms. This is the terror: to have emerged from nothing, to have a name, consciousness of self, deep inner feelings, an excruciating inner yearning for life and self-¬expression—and with all this yet to die. It seems like a hoax, which is why one type of cultural man rebels openly against the idea of God. What kind of deity would create such complex and fancy worm food? Cynical deities, said the Greeks, who use man's tor¬ments for their own amusement. The man with the clear head is the man who frees himself from those fantastic "ideas" [the characterological lie about reality] and looks life in the face, realizes that everything in it is problematic, and feels him¬self lost. And this is the simple truth—that to live is to feel oneself lost —he who accepts it has already begun to find himself, to be on firm ground. Instinctively, as do the shipwrecked, he will look round for something to which to cling, and that tragic, ruthless glance, absolutely sincere, because it is a question of his salvation, will cause him to bring order into the chaos of his life. These are the only genuine ideas; the ideas of the shipwrecked. All the rest is rhetoric, posturing, farce. He who does not really feel himself lost, is without remission; that is to say, he never finds himself, never comes up against his own reality. Once the person begins to look to his relationship to the Ultimate Power, to infinitude, and to refashion his links from those around him to that Ultimate Power, he opens up to himself the horizon of unlimited possibility, of real freedom. This is Kierkegaard's mes¬sage, the culmination of his whole argument about the dead-ends of character, the ideal of health, the school of anxiety, the nature of real possibility and freedom. One goes through it all to arrive at faith, the faith that one's very creatureliness has some meaning to a Creator; that despite one's true insignificance, weakness, death, one's existence has meaning in some ultimate sense because it exists within an eternal and infinite scheme of things brought about and maintained to some kind of design by some creative force. Again and again throughout his writings Kierkegaard repeats the basic formula of faith: one is a creature who can do nothing, but one exists over against a living God for whom "everything is possible." The individual has to protect himself against the world, and he can do this only as any other animal would: by narrowing down the world, shutting off experience, developing an obliviousness both to the terrors of the world and to his own anxieties. Otherwise he would be crippled for action. We cannot repeat too often the great lesson of Freudian psychology: that repression is normal self-protection and creative self-restriction—in a real sense, man's natural substitute for instinct. Rank has a perfect, key term for this natural human talent: he calls it "partialization" and very rightly sees that life is impossible without it. What we call the well-adjusted man has just this capacity to partialize the world for comfortable action.2 I have used the term "fetishization," which is exactly the same idea: the "normal" man bites off what he can chew and digest of life, and no more. In other words, men aren't built to be gods, to take in the whole world; they are built like other creatures, to take in the piece of ground in front of their noses. Gods can take in the whole of creation because they alone can make sense of it, know what it is all about and for. But as soon as a man lifts his nose from the ground and starts sniffing at eternal problems like life and death, the meaning of a rose or a star cluster—then he is in trouble. Most men spare themselves this trouble by keeping their minds on the small problems of their lives just as their society maps these problems out for them. These are what Kierkegaard called the "immediate" men and the "Philistines." They "tranquilize themselves with the trivial"—and so they can lead normal lives. Right away we can see the immensely fertile horizon that opens up in all of our thinking on mental health and "normal" behavior. In order to function normally, man has to achieve from the begin¬ning a serious constriction of the world and of himself. We can say that the essence of normality is the refusal of reality.3 What we call neurosis enters precisely at this point: Some people have more trouble with their lies than others. The world is too much with them, and the techniques that they have developed for holding it at bay and cutting it down to size finally begin to choke the person himself. This is neurosis in a nutshell: the miscarriage of clumsy lies about reality. A second way of crossing the line into clinical neurosis follows naturally from everything we have said. Rank asked why the artist so often avoids clinical neurosis when he is so much a candidate for it because of his vivid imagination, his openness to the finest and broadest aspects of experience, his isolation from the cultural world-view that satisfies everyone else. The answer is that he takes in the world, but instead of being oppressed by it he reworks it in his own personality and recreates it in the work of art. The neurotic is precisely the one who cannot create—the "artiste-manque," as Rank so aptly called him. We might say that both the artist and the neurotic bite off more than they can chew, but the artist spews it back out again and chews it over in an objectified way, as an ex¬ternal, active, work project. The neurotic can't marshal this creative response embodied in a specific work, and so he chokes on his in¬troversions. The artist has similar large-scale introversions, but he uses them as material.17 In Rank's inspired conceptualization, the difference is put like this: Some people are more sensitive to the lie of cultural life, to the illusions of the causa-sui project that others are so thoughtlessly and trustingly caught up in. The neurotic is having trouble with the balance of cultural illusion and natural reality; the possible horrible truth about himself and the world is seeping into his consciousness. The average man is at least secure that the cultural game is the truth, the unshakable, durable truth. He can earn his immortality in and under the dominant immortality ideology, period. It is all so simple and clear-cut. But now the neurotic: Rank calls this a paradoxical but deep insight into the essence of neurosis, and he sums it up in the words we have used as an epigraph to this chapter. In fact, it is this and more: it absolutely shakes the foundations of our conceptualization of normality and health. It makes them entirely a relative value problem. The neu¬rotic opts out of life because he is having trouble maintaining his illusions, about it, which proves nothing less than that life is possible only with illusions.
We said that the point was that even with the highest personal development and liberation, the person comes up against the real despair of the human condition. Indeed, because of that develop¬ment his eyes are opened to the reality of things; there is no turn¬ing back to the comforts of a secure and armored life. The person is stuck with the full problem of himself, and yet he cannot rely on himself to make any sense out of it. For such a person, as Camus said, "the weight of days is dreadful." What does it mean, then, we questioned in Chapter Four, to talk fine-sounding phrases like "Being cognition," "the fully centered person," "full humanism," "the joy of peak experiences," or whatever, unless we seriously qualify such ideas with the burden and the dread that they also carry? Finally, with these questions we saw that we could call into doubt the pretensions of the whole therapeutic enterprise. What joy and comfort can it give to fully awakened people? Once you accept the truly desperate situation that man is in, you come to see not only that neurosis is normal, but that even psychotic failure represents only a little additional push in the routine stumbling along life's way. If repression makes an untenable life liveable, self-knowledge can entirely destroy it for some people.
What are we to make of a creation in which the routine activity is for organisms to be tearing others apart with teeth of all types—biting, grinding flesh, plant stalks, bones between molars, pushing the pulp greedily down the gullet with delight, incorporating its essence into one's own organization, and then excreting with foul stench and gasses the residue. Every¬one reaching out to incorporate others who are edible to him. | ||
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