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| The Scotsman | Elders refuse to Testify | |
| IP: 9QAXL4PQsCT1ID9F |
by The Scotsman:
Correct formatting | |
| Tatiana | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
Thanks, scotsman...I will be posting this at every site I belong to. This infuriates me. They are exactly like the churches they condemn. ![]() | ||
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| JK666 | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
May they all rot in hell. JK | ||
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| nomoreguilt | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
Same old crap, isn't it? But you know very well that everyone in the cong heard all the nitty gritty from the jc.
NMG | ||
| IP: 95Ki/gaaH3OvpXCt | ||
| blondie | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
So the elders are "clergy" eh? California law protects statements made to clergy members who are required by their faith's practices to keep them secret. Many of the nation's courts have traditionally respected the rights of religious organizations to keep communications secret and beyond the reach of the law, said Colorado-based attorney L. Martin Nussbaum, partner in the firm Rothgerber Johnson & Lyons. This protection encourages people to confide in their spiritual leaders, said Nussbaum, who is co-chairman of his firm's Religious Institution Group. Lawyers who bring suits against religious groups often say the law's penitent-clergy privilege is used to conceal evidence in child sex-abuse cases. *** jv (Proclaimers 1993) chap. 15 p. 204 Development of the Organization Structure *** The Bible Students were keenly interested in understanding not only Bible doctrine but also the mannerinwhichGod’sservicewastobeperformed, as indicated by the Scriptures. They realized that the Bible made no provision for titled clergymen, with a laity to whom they would preach. Brother Russell was determined that there would be no clergy class among them. Through the columns of the WatchTower, its readers were frequently reminded that Jesus told his followers: "Your Leader is one, the Christ," but, "All you are brothers."—Matt. 23:8, 10. *** w03 8/1 p. 24 Happy Is the One Whose God Is Jehovah ***Little by little, though, I understood why the clergy-laity arrangement was unscriptural and why God did not approve when the clergy blessed the war effort. (Isaiah 2:4; Matthew 23:8-10; Romans 12:17, 18) *** g76 9/8 pp. 27-28 Are Clergy-Laity Distinctions Scriptural? *** What Is the Bible’s View? CLERGY-LAITY distinctions have existed in the religious system of Christendom for many centuries. Few persons give thought as to the Scripturalness of having a professional clergy class presiding over the rest of the believers. Yet it may be asked, Is the dividing up of believers into clergy and laity in harmony with the inspired Scriptures? In the first-century Christian congregation clergy-laity distinctions were unknown. These were a later development. Says the EncyclopaediaBritannica: "The 2nd century of the Christian church witnessed the emergence of a distinction between clergy and laity (Gr. laos, ‘people’). This distinction received form and recognition by the privileges and immunities granted to the clergy by Constantine I [4th century]." Well, has the bringing in of a professional clergy class been in the best interests of the church members? The Jesuit monthly Etudes states that it "maintains ‘the faithful’ in a state of ignorance and irresponsibility." This is not an exaggeration. As part of a laity class, people generally take little initiative on their own to find out what the Bible says and to grow in spiritual comprehension. They simply leave this up to their clergyman, much the same as they entrust their health problems to their doctor. This, however, was not the arrangement in the days of the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. All men within the congregation were encouraged to make spiritual progress and to work at becoming qualified teachers of God’s Word. According to the rendering of the Catholic JerusalemBible, the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "To want to be a presiding elder is to want to do a noble work." The Catholic NewAmericanBible reads: "Whoever wants to be a bishop aspires to a noble task."—1 Tim. 3:1. The office of "presiding elder" or "bishop" was not beyond the reach of Christian men. However, this office was not what is commonly thought of today. It was an office of oversight held, not by just one man, but by a body of men. Those appointed to that office were called "overseers" or "elders." Acknowledging that a body of men presided over a congregation, a footnote on Titus 1:5 in the JerusalemBible tells us: "In the earliest days each Christian community was governed by a body of elders (‘presbyters’, whence the English word ‘priests’)." One’s qualifying as an "elder" or "overseer" was not a matter of ascending a hierarchical ladder, starting with the lowest rung. Catholic theologian Legrand writes: "The ordained ministry is not a cursushonorum [race for honors] to be run like climbing the rungs of a hierarchical ladder. In fact, the word hierarchy is not to be found in the Bible. Its earliest use goes back to the beginning of the 6th century, when Pseudo-Dionysius used it, although quite differently from the meaning given to it in the Middle Ages, limiting it to ordained ministers, whereas for Dionysius it [hierarchy] included the laity and even catechumens [learners]." The fact that being an overseer or elder is not restricted to a limited number, nor dependent upon some seminary training, encourages Christian men to strive to measure up to the qualifications outlined in the Holy Scriptures. This encourages all to grow in knowledge and to want to be of service to fellow believers. Unlike the clergy-laity arrangement that contributes to people’s being Bible illiterates and failing to shoulder Christian responsibility, the Scriptural arrangement encourages their taking positive action in growing in Christian knowledge and in serving fellow believers. This has been the experience of Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are striving hard to pattern their congregations according to Biblical guidelines. Furthermore, those serving as elders in the first-century congregation were under command to avoid taking a superior position with reference to its members. No man was to be viewed as an official leader or head of the congregation. Elevating titles were ruled out for all. Jesus Christ stated: "You, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister [servant]."—Matt. 23:8-11. The Christian congregation was to be like a family under the headship of Jesus Christ. Accordingly, elders were to treat members of the congregation in harmony with that fact and humbly serve them. The apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "Do not severely criticize an older man. To the contrary, entreat him as a father, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters with all chasteness."—1 Tim. 5:1, 2. The whole spirit of the Bible’s counsel to Christian elders is against the development of a clergy-laity distinction. The emphasis is always placed on unselfish service and avoiding anything that would imply an exalted position over fellow believers. The apostle Peter, for example, admonished fellow elders: "Shepherd the flock of God in your care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock."—1 Pet. 5:2, 3. The objective of Christian elders who were not inspired apostles was to avoid exercising a dominion or lordship over the "flock of God." Their obligation was to help the members of this "flock" to hold onto what faith they already had and to help them to keep it pure and thereby work for the Christian joy of all. Just as the apostle Paul, when writing corrective letters of help to the Corinthian congregation, said: "It was out of consideration for you that I did not after all come to Corinth. Do not think we are dictating the terms of your faith; your hold on the faith is secure enough. We are working with you for your own happiness."—2 Cor. 1:23, 24, TheNewEnglishBible; see also TheJerusalemBible.Truly the facts establish that clergy-laity distinctions of today are not based on the Holy Scriptures. They have actually hampered Christian growth by discouraging spiritual initiative. Such distinctions that exist in the religious organizations of Christendom are in fulfillment of prophecies that pointed to a turning away from true belief and practice. For example, the apostle Paul told the body of elders or overseers of the Ephesus congregation: "From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:30) Is this not something that should be given serious consideration by those belonging to organizations that approve clergy-laity distinctions? | ||
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| OnTheWayOut | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
I tend to support confidentiality of confessions made to priests or other "spiritual" counsellors. However, I would only support the confidentiality of a confession made to the elders, not the Statements by a man accused of child molestation to elders during a judicial committee are not covered by the penitent-clergy privilege, because the committee was not required by the organization's practices to keep the statements a secret, according to Judge Raymond Guadagni's decision. The committee had to share information about potential child-molestation cases with its headquarters, the ruling said. California already dealt with this issue, and the WTS lost, hence the settlement before revealing Even in the case of a member coming forward and confessing to one or two elders, they must If the elder(s) break that confidentiality IN A COUNSEL SESSION by reporting to Headquarters or Even though we know their reasons for doing things are to protect the organization ahead of the Edited to add: And as Blondie points out, they claim there is no clergy class in JW's, so there | ||
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by OnTheWayOut:
Correct formatting | |
| The Scotsman | Re: Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
Onthewayout I can see your point about confidentiality having a place in certain circumstances. But when we consider the serious nature of this crime, and others, their must be a responsibility on those "with relevent information" to come forward, especially when it involves the potential conviction of criminals. To think - a child molester could walk free due to a lack of evidence when a few elders in the local cong heard him confess to the crime!!! The whole thing is pretty depressing.
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| chickpea | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
pond dwelling bottom-feeders | ||
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| OnTheWayOut | Re: Re: Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
But when we consider the serious nature of this crime, and others, their must be a responsibility on those "with relevent information" to come forward, especially when it involves the potential conviction of criminals. The law should be clear that they should report the crime. They can say that they are aware of the Even if the law doesn't require that, they should do so. They should report any known evidence, like other victims or video or photos or names of The only thing I advocate as confidential is the testimony in a voluntary confession from the assailant to Remove that clergy privilege, and many people won't come forward to a clergyman for help. That help | ||
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| AlyMC | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
The difference is obvious, and I doubt they will win here. If you go to confession you are confessing to one person and that person is bound by an oath not to tell ANYONE. The elders have already talked about it openly with the victim's mother and perhaps even more. Obviously it isn't a true confidentiality issue.
I'm glad the Victim's mother is pursuing this instead of just rolling over and assuming the "firm talking to" and the bible is enough to stop this man (assuming his guilt of course).
It is hard not to become irate about stuff like this, regardless of what religion it is. You can't just ignore molestation because you were told in confidence. I think there are some things the sinner needs to STFU about and rot in their own guilt if they don't want it "out there". The idea of being able to confess to molestation, do a penance and move on is really quite sickening. | ||
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| jamiebowers | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
I wonder how long it will take for the parents of the victims to be disfellowshipped for coming forward and exposing that monster for what he is. I also wonder if the elders discouraged the parents of the victims from going to law enforcement. They (the elders) apparently aren't concerned about punishing the molester and protecting the victims and other children who may become his victims. | ||
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| buffalosrfree | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
Those self righteous rectum circles are hiding the society's culpability again, did they even report it to the police? Doesn't LEV. 5:1 have a part in this; they certainly know of a matter that is illegal and they are helping to hide evidence. Shouldn't they also be arrested for abbeting the individual or inbibiting the investigation of a an alleged crime??? | ||
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| lovelylil | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
I am with Blondie on this one. The elders and the society claim there is no "clergy" class and YET they are claiming the same privacy laws that clergy use? They can't have it both ways. If I were still an active dub, I would definately raise a big stink about this one. I cannot really understand HOW people can read articles like this and STILL remain a witness. Especially if they have children. WAKE UP people, (those who are still in). And take a real stand for TRUTH and protect the INNOCENT lambs of the congregation! Do you really believe that the true God would allow this type of abuse of children and condone elders covering it up? The WT is a vessell of the Devil, and is sooo removed from the real God it is not funny!!!! Lilly | ||
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| AlyMC | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
I am going to guess that the mother wasn't on board with going to the authorities at first, as it was the school principle who contacted the authorities after she said asked them to prevent him any contact with her daughters. So, it doesn't seem like she was the first to go forward which might prevent her from being DF'd or blamed for the "reproach". Who knows though. I wonder what the society would answer to what blondie posted... no clergy, yet clergy rights. | ||
| IP: eUBy4DhSHxf1WsvJ | ||
| daniel-p | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
This shows how the WTS will use any reason or defense they can--even hiding behind the "clergy" provision--to not suffer the consequences of only being concerned how to cover their asses. Have they EVER been concerned more with the victims than purpetrators? No. | ||
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| daniel-p | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
On another note, I really hope this story is circulated as widely as possible. It's the best thing we have to open the eyes of the JWs. | ||
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| whereami | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
I literally get sick to my stomach with this crap. Is there a possibility to write to this newspaper showing the the hypocrisy of this religion? Show this newspaper what has been written in the wts literature regarding clergy priviledge, as shown per Blondie's research. Tell them that 99.99% of jdubs don't consider themselves clergy!! Does Barbera Anderson know of this? Come on people let's make a ruckus!!! This makes me sick. | ||
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| loosie | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
What a bunch of A$$H*@'s they are!!! What they report it now but won't do anything beyond that? | ||
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| undercover | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
The Jehovah's Witnesses public information office in New York also declined to comment. Headquarters is going to distance themselves from this as much as possible. It'll be interesting to see if the courts rule that the elders have to testify and if they continue to refuse. Will the WTS come to the aid? Don't bet on it. The elders all on their own. If they're found in contempt of court, they'll do the time and the Society won't lift a finger. | ||
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| Tatiana | Re: Elders refuse to Testify | |
I literally get sick to my stomach with this crap. Is there a possibility to write to this newspaper showing the the hypocrisy of this religion? Show this newspaper what has been written in the wts literature regarding clergy priviledge, as shown per Blondie's research. Tell them that 99.99% of jdubs don't consider themselves clergy!! Does Barbera Anderson know of this? Come on people let's make a ruckus!!! This makes me sick. I was just about to ask the same thing. Any way to get these articles into the judges hands? The lawyers? There has to be a way. Seems to me this would blow their "defense" right out of the water. | ||
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