I have a small debate. on what gods real name shoulde be. he say it is Jehova, and i say, if we shoulde go back in time, why not use the name seth. becourse it was problably, the god moses was devoted to, as a slave.
moses gave him the name johava?(not sure here.)
jesus gave him the name god(not sure again. he he)
Muhammed gave him the name Allah.
But the letters use in the old skripts is YHVH/JHVH and have no vokals in it. it can give any word you chose.
so is the word Jehovas in reallity the rigth word? i'm not wise in this part, since i can't greek.
I hope you can help me here:)
Sign Palle
the word for gods name?
by pallemar 15 Replies latest watchtower bible
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pallemar
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DannyBloem
Hi Pallemar, welcome.
I have a small debate. on what gods real name shoulde be. he say it is Jehova, and i say, if we shoulde go back in time, why not use the name seth. becourse it was problably, the god moses was devoted to, as a slave.
the deity jehovah/Jahweh didn't come from egypt directly. It was also know in other tribes living close to the hebrews.
well, it you take the bible litterary, the name was already known before moses.
In fact it looks more like too different people writing differently, then only moses. According to one part moses receives the name, according to another part the name was already known to abraham. looks like two writers disagreeing on thisMuhammed gave him the name Allah.
Allah, is not a name, it is the word god.
I think f you would learn greek it would not help you. IMHO it would be more probably yahweh, but who cares... -
pallemar
lol yeah who cares:)
thanks for your view and warm wellcome:)
the reson i think the original name is Seth, is becourse Seth was the slaves god, he gave them a hope of a better place after death, if they game him a little in this living world.
As it is writen in the bibel. "and the israelite, god contakted moses as a burning bush"
Israelite means slave people. so the slaves god contacted moses.
If we look at it in arkeologisk eye's at what time here was 44 slaves pr egyption, so it was forbidden for slaves to multiply, so all newborn chills was kill i think it was. but at that time the etioperne was attacking the egyptien borders. so here was not so manny soldiers at home, and some how a revolt, succedet. and who burn down the egyptien arkive. is unknown. but some how, all slaves was free. becourse here was no dukoments of who was a slave and who was not.
this problably save the faraos. But allso started the most boring years seen with arkeolical eyes, for around 60 years, nothing new got build:(
but moses got a military training and endet as a general. and started to raid the same people who free him from slavery. predy ironik :) he he.
But moses did it a so evil way, that it can be comparet to etniks cleansing. hole towns was kill, only young women who coulde be use as sex slaves, for the soldiers, was save.
here is a small note, where moses yells at one of his officers, for being to soft.
A general is not better that the rudenes of his soldiers and his soldiers ability to kill :(
but the tactik worket out fine. the enemie soldier got so mad at him, they forgot all reson, and got after him in the swamp, there moses love to make his military taktikal stands. (mose means swamp in danish)
but Moses taktik gave him fame but allso enemies, Egypt needet more slaves, and din't need a lot of death people. that just made the enemie more mad at them.
so it endet up with moses had to flee from egypt. he hide with the herde kings:) (arabs)
well at a old age moses rekturns and take his people with him, the israelite, and here i think moses dump all the egyptien gods, and make Seth the only god. becourse moses was so mad at the egyption.
Around this time some farao say he have defeted, the death god seth.
He flee over the panama channel swamp. well it later got changet to black sea, becourse the romen wanna have some magic in the books:)
how manny years after the moses death was the books writen, i have got told, he din't write any of the books him self. -
sunshineToo
You know, I posted the same topic last night at "Friends" section (because everyone goes there), but it's not up yet. I'm glad that your is up. I'll be very interested in this thread.
Should the God's name be "Jehovah", "Yahweh", or "Yehowah"?
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Narkissos
sunshineToo,
You've got a few replies on your thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/116041/1.ashx
So far they have not really answered the issue of pronunciation. Let's say that the evidence for Yahweh comes mostly from the phonetic convergence of various ancient Greek transliterations, such as Iabe, Iaoue, Iabai, Iaouai. The only attested alternatives are Yahu or Yaho and are better explained, not as the pronunciation of the full tetragrammaton (Yhwh) but of its reduced form Yhw, as appears either as a prefix (Masoretic vocalisation yeho) or a suffix (Masoretic vocalisation yahu). There is absolutely no convincing evidence, imo, for a three-syllable form like *Yehowah.
pallemar,
First, welcome.
I personally think the Moses and Exodus stories were essentially made up in the 1st millenium BC, both before and after the Babylonian exile, so I'm not very much inclined to look for 2nd-millenium history behind it...
But you may have a point when you say: "Israelite means slave people." Only, it's not "Israelite" but "Hebrew". `ibri can etymologically refer to the "immigrant" coming from "the other side" (`br) of a river (Genesis 50:10f), a valley (1 Samuel 31:7), a sea (Jeremiah 25:22), a border (Joshua 22:11). In its oldest uses it applies interestingly to slaves in relation to their masters -- not only the "Hebrews" to the Egyptians or Philistines in general, but especially the "Hebrew slave," even owned by an Israelite (Exodus 21:2ff; Deuteronomy 15:12ff; Jeremiah 34:9ff). There is a good case (Lemche, Lipinski) that `ibri in pre-exilic times was a social rather than ethnic term, referring to the status of people (Israelite or not) without tribal attachment and/or land ownership, who could easily become slaves to the landowners. This older use of the word may be reminiscent to the 2nd-millenium Egyptian Habiru/Hapiru, although those were definitely not the "Israelites in Egypt" as many have thought.
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jwfacts
Pallemar,
What you say explains the history of Gods name in the bible.
Able, who is supposedly the first Jehovah's Witness, did not even know of YHWH, neither did Noah or Abraham. It was at the time of Moses that it was introduced. By Jesus time it was barely in use and there is no record of YHWH ever being recorded in the New Testament. So a Christian should be using Lord, God or Father to address the Almighty, as was Jesus example.
Jehovah was not the way it was pronounced, Yahweh is considered more likely to have been the pronounciation. There is more information about it at http://jwfacts.com/index_files/Jehovah.htm
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Narkissos
Able, who is supposedly the first Jehovah's Witness, did not even know of YHWH, neither did Noah or Abraham. It was at the time of Moses that it was introduced.
That is, by one of the OT traditions (Exodus 6:2f). Others posit the use of the name Yhwh as early as Eve (Genesis 4:1) or Enosh (4:26).
We can have an interesting glance at a common view of this issue among Greek-speaking Jews around the time ascribed to Jesus in Philo of Alexandria, On the Change of Names, 11-14:
It was, therefore, quite consistent with reason that no proper name could with propriety be assigned to him who is in truth the living God. Do you not see that to the prophet who is really desirous of making an honest inquiry after the truth, and who asks what answer he is to give to those who question him as to the name of him who has sent him, he says, "I am that I Am," which is equivalent to saying, "It is my nature to be, not to be described by name:" but in order that the human race may not be wholly destitute of any appellation which they may give to the most excellent of beings, I allow you to use the word Lord as a name; the Lord God of three natures--of instruction, and of holiness, and of the practice of virtue; of which Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob are recorded as the symbols. For this, says he, is the everlasting name, as if it has been investigated and discerned in time as it exists in reference to us, and not in that time which was before all time; and it is also a memorial not placed beyond recollection or intelligence, and again it is addressed to persons who have been born, not to uncreated natures. For these men have need of the complete use of the divine name who come to a created or mortal generation, in order that, if they cannot attain to the best thing, they may at least arrive at the best possible name, and arrange themselves in accordance with that; and the sacred oracle which is delivered as from the mouth of the Ruler of the universe, speaks of the proper name of God never having been revealed to any one, when God is represented as saying, "For I have not shown them my Name;" for by a slight change in the figure of speech here used, the meaning of what is said would be something of this kind: "My proper name I have not revealed to them," but only that which is commonly used, though with some misapplication, because of the reasons abovementioned. And, indeed, the living God is so completely indescribable, that even those powers which minister unto him do not announce his proper name to us. At all events, after the wrestling match in which the practicer of virtue wrestled for the sake of the acquisition of virtue, he says to the invisible Master, "Tell me thy Name;" but he said, "Why askest thou me my name?" And he does not tell him his peculiar and proper name, for says he, it is sufficient for thee to be taught my ordinary explanations. But as for names which are the symbols of created things, do not seek to find them among immortal natures.
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z
The Children of
However dim and uncertain Hebrew history is in the age of the patriarchs, there is no question that the migration out of around 1250 BC is the single most important event in Hebrew history. More than anything else in history, this event gave the Hebrews an identity, a nation, a founder, and a name, used for the first time in the very first line of Exodus , the biblical account of the migration: "bene yisrael," "the children of ."
How did this happen? How did this diverse set of tribal groups all worshipping a god they called "god," suddenly cohere into a more or less unified national group? What happened in that didn't happen with other foreigners living there?
Well, we really can't answer that question, for we have almost no account whatsoever of the Hebrews in , even in Hebrew history. For all the momentousness of the events of the migration for the Hebrews and the dramatic nature of the rescue, including plagues and catastrophes raining down on , the Egyptians do not seem to have noticed the Hebrews or to even know that they were living in their country. While we have several Egyptian records of foreign groups during the , they are records of actively expelling groups they feel are threatening or overly powerful. The Hebrews never appear in these records, nor do any of the events recounted in the Hebrew history of the event. The Hebrews themselves are only interested in the events directly leading up to the migration; all the events in the centuries preceding are passed over in silence.
We can make some guesses about the Hebrews in , though. It isn't unreasonable to believe that a sizable Hebrew population lived in the north of Egypt from about 1500-1250 BC; enormous numbers of tribal groups, most of them Semitic, had been settling in northern Egypt from about 1800 BC. These foreigners had grown so powerful that for a short time they dominated , ruling the Egyptians themselves; this period is called the Third Intermediate Period in Egyptian history. When the Egyptians reasserted dominance over at the start of the New Kingdom , they actively expelled as many foreigners as they could. Life got fairly harsh for these foreigners, who were called "habiru," which was applied to landless aliens (taken from the word, "apiru," or foreigner). Is this where the Hebrews got their name? It's a hotly contested issue. Nevertheless, the kings also began to garrison their borders in the north and east in order to prevent foreigners from entering the country in the first place. In particular, the Egyptian king, Seti I (1305-1290), moved his capital to Avaris at the very north of the delta. This move was a shrewd move, for it established a powerful military presence right at the entrance to .
Garrisoned cities, however, don't pop into existence at a whim; they are labor intensive affairs. Typically, building projects involved heavy taxation of local populations; these taxes took the form of labor taxes. It isn't unreasonable to guess that the heaviest burden of these taxes fell on the foreigners living in the area, which would include the Hebrews. As best as we can guess, we believe that these building projects form the substance of the oppression of the Hebrews described in Exodus.Moses and the Yahweh Cult
Nothing, however, should have prevented these oppressed and miserable foreigners from spilling into the anonymity of history—as so many had done before and since. One figure, however, changed the course of this history and united some of these foreigners into a distinct people; he also gave them a religion and a theology that would forever unite them in a singular purpose in history. That person was Moses. In spite of the masterful portrayal of him in Exodus , he is a difficult figure to pin down. Few people dispute that Moses was a reality in history, whether as an individual or a group of individuals, but there are several perplexing aspects of the man. First, he has an Egyptian name (as do many of his relatives). Second, he seems to spend a large amount of time among a non-Hebrew people, the Midianites, where he marries and seems to learn the Yahweh religion, and some of its cultic practices, from the Midianites. Are there two Moses, an Egyptian and a Hebrew? Or an Egyptian and a Midianite? And are the Midianites the first peoples to worship Yahweh and who then transmit this religion to the Hebrews? The question is complicated by the presence of Miriam, Moses' sister, in the migration. For she is the first individual in the Hebrew bible to be called a "prophet," and seems to have been an important player in the migration, possibly even being the principle figure in the climactic battle between the Egyptians and the Hebrews at the Sea of Reeds. At some point, however, there was a falling out between Miriam and Moses, and Miriam gets lost to history.
It is equally difficult to pinpoint exactly who participated in the migration. Although the focus is on the Hebrews, Exodus claims that a "diverse group of peoples" left with Moses. Who were these? Did they include other Semites? Was the migration to a staggered affair, or was it a single, heroic migration as indicated in Exodus ? What resistance did the Egyptians put up? What was the nature of their battle with the Egyptians at the ? The account of this battle is vitally important to Hebrew history, for the deliverance of the Hebrews at the stands as the single most powerful symbol of Yahweh's protection of the Hebrews. Exodus gives two accounts; in the first, Yahweh blows the water away to create a ford, and the Egyptians get stuck in the mud and go home. In the second, Yahweh separates the waters and drowns the Egyptians when they try to cross. Which is the correct account?
It's difficult to answer any of these questions. In the end, the only account we have of the migration from is the Hebrew account. Several salient aspects give this narrative its foundational role in the Hebrew view of history. First, Moses is especially chosen by Yahweh to deliver Yahweh's people. In other words, Yahweh directly intervenes in history in order to bring about his purposes for his people. Second, the people of Yahweh become a national entity, identified by the name, "bene yisrael," rather than simply being a diverse group of tribes. They are united around a specific leader, Moses. Third, the events in , including the plagues and the miraculous deliverance of the Israelites at the when pursued by the king's army, are meant to serve as the primary proof of God's election of the Hebrews. There's no question that these stories were told and retold among the Hebrews as the most important events of their history. For in the events leading up to and involving the migration from , Yahweh proved once and for all that he would use and protect the Hebrews as the people, and the only people, selected by Yahweh. Third, Hebrew religion became the Yahweh religion. The Hebrews did not worship "Yahweh" before the migration, but learned the cult, according to Exodus , from Moses during the migration.
This introduction to Yahweh and the Yahweh cult occured in the southernmost region of the Arabian peninsula, in an area around . This area had been occupied by a nomadic, tribal people called Midianites. They seem to have worshipped a kind of nature god which they believed lived on . It is here, living with a priest of the Midianites, called Jethro, that Moses first encounters Yahweh (on ) and learns his name for the first time. The name of god, which in Hebrew is spelled YHWH, is difficult to explain. Scholars generally believe that it derives from the Semitic word, "to be," and so means something like, "he causes to be." Nevertheless, when Moses returns to Sinai with the people of and stays in the area (this period is called the Sinai pericope), Jethro declares that he has always known Yahweh to be the most powerful of all gods (was the Midianite religion, then, a religion of Yahweh?). During the Sinai pericope, all the laws and cultic practices of the new Yahweh religion are set down. The laws themselves come directly from Yahweh in the Decalogue, or "ten commandments." The Decalogue is a unique part of the Hebrew Torah in that it is the only part of Hebrew scriptures which claims to be the words of god written down on the spot .
Whatever happened in the migration from to , it is clear that somewhere in this period the general laws and cultic practices of the Hebrews settled down into a definite form. These laws and this new cult of Yahweh would form the eternal character of the Hebrews down to the present day. What began as a "diverse group of peoples" has become one people, who then systematically begin to settle the land of the Canaanites. -
pallemar
thanks all for your help:)
I use this Forum, alot. to see how to argue the bedst way:)
and find new things about JW. MUHAHAHHAA! :)
In my point of wiev, JW needs help to be indepenten loving people.
and sunshineToo sorry for not notising your post:(
i din't see it, i made a search before I postet, and only got 4 results.
from other plases.
So i gues, no one had posted the same thing.
have it lovely all:)
and may all your dreams be true:) -
Poztate
ALLAH....why are Christians right and every one else wrong??