Can 70 years be symbolic in the Bible?

by Pterist 47 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    1914 has not support in the Bible for FOUR REASONS:

    1. Jerusalem did not fall in year 18, but year 19!! 607 BCE is based on year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar II. So that bit of "relative chronology" is wrong.

    2. The "70 years" upon which 607 BCE is based, that is, 70 years from the year of the return in 537 BCE, dates the year of the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. Josephus confirms this. The Bible agrees.

    3. The Persians revised the NB timeline. They removed 26 years from the NB timeline. They removed 2 years each from Nebuchadnezzar II and Nabonidus, they removed 16 years from the 18-year rule of Evil-Merodach, and the entire 6-year rule of "Darius the Mede" who conquered Babylon with Cyrus but began to rule from there as the capital of the Median part of the empire. Darius the Mede was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II. This was when the kingdom was the Medo-Persian Empire. Cyrus was ruling over the Persian part of the empire. But Darius the Mede having no sons, abdicated to Cyrus because he was married to the daughter to Astyages, the king of the Medes. Thus his sons carried on the royal line of the Medes through the Persians. But since the men were the kings, Cyrus became king over a new united Persia. All the "kings" of the various sub-kingdoms took on the title of "governor" (as did Zerubbabel) while Cyrus and his heirs carried the title as "king." Cyrus, at this point, began counting his rulership year as year 1 over the Greater Persian Empire. Later on, after a conflict with the Greeks, Xerxes who was also known as "Artaxerxes" in Persia, used that double name to claim he was his own son after faking his death. This was done for political reasons. Darius I, his father, had only ruled for six years, having been killed by the Athenians while at Marathon, the reason for Xerxes' harsh invasion of Athens. That worked and cooled things down in Greece politics against Xerxes. Later to cover this up, the Persians just revised their history. They did this via propaganda from Greek historians, like Herodotus and Xenophon who were Greeks giving details of Persian history, which is a red flag right there! Turns out in order for Darius to be old enough to be the grandfather of Artaxerxes, who was his own son, they added 30 years to his rule so that the historical records show him ruling 36 years instead of just 6. The Persians removed 26 years from the NB kings to try and make up for the expansion. So, it's not as if we don't know who and why these revisions were made. Bottom line is, the VAT4956 can be used to restore the "absolute" dating to this period, which also agrees with the "relative dating." That is, when year 37 falls in 511 BCE, it dates year 23 to 525 BCE which you can then introduce the 70 years to get the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE. So its just amazing. The Bible's own timeline is now confirmed by some secular evidence. Since the primary Babylonian records all are "copies" from Persia, we automatically assume they are revised, which they are.

    4. The fourth reason why 1914 doesn't work, is because the WTS mistakenly thinks that it was only Judea that had to be desolated with "no one passing through" the land for the 70 years! So they invent some Jews outside of Judea to be deported in year 23 (Jer. 52:30), totally ignoring both the Bible and Josephus who clearly note those last deported were the remnant of those who had ran down to Egypt, including certainly Jeremiah and Baruch, right? Problem is, it was not just the land of Judah that had to serve these 70 years of complete desolation. Note, for instance, that Tyre, which is a coastal city in the Northern Kingdom had to be desolated as well! So even the WTS confirms that there were people in the Northern Kingdom area up until year 23! But the 70 years can't begin until BOTH the Northern and Southern kingdoms were desolated, even if Judea was desolated after the Jewish remnant ran down to Egypt following the assasination of Gedaliah. Now I can tell the Governing Body this or those on the Writing Committee, and they will immediately understand. The average witness wouldn't have the background to put this into context, which is one reason it is hard to convince many devout witnesses of the "truth" since they have been trained not to know anything. They are "always taking in knowledge, but never coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth", partly because of WTS mind-control methods, but also because they don't want to! They love what is written on the pages of the Watchtower and that's it! They are ignorant and want to remain at that level. They don't have to THINK, just underline answers and read what the WTS says. If you force them to THINK, they think you've demonized and they shut down.

    Now at some point, the GB will feel bad that they got this wrong. They know this is the accurate truth now. After they feel rejected by Jehovah and miffed that Jehovah didn't show THEM this information so they could continue to play God's "channel of communication" and bask in the sun of being a true prophet and the giver of light, they are going to then realize I'm the one with holy spirit and that Jehovah has given me this knowledge and holy spirit. You see, even though the average XJW here don't believe in holy spirit or attribute any significance to being "anointed", the GB does. We experience holy spirit and understand it. They are my spiritual brothers, even if they are cast out in the end and cut off. You know, the "ten virgins" start out together, even though there is a split later on when Christ arrives. So my "spiritual brothers" will come to the understanding that I must be the true Christ sooner than the masses will.

    So they are sitting on a time bomb. They want to get right. They want to get into the kingdom. The five foolish virgins are realizing what is happening and they are knocking on the door now to get into my kingdom, now realizing I'm the Christ. But its too late. It is time for their "weeping and gnashing of their teeth." I'm sad about that, but they brought it upon themselves with their arrogance and presumptiveness thinking they were the "faithful and discreet slave."

    Now, in their defense, there is clearly no way to get around 2 Chronicles 36's reference to the land paying back its sabbaths for 70 years. There is no way getting around Josephus understanding that the 70 years was the time assigned to the exile of the last deportees. I mean, that's a direct read and interpretation by the Jews themselves! So all this fantasy about 70 years (609-539 BCE) or 66 years (604-538 BCE) is just bogus. No one of any informed reference or intelligence can validate this. That's because it never gets to come up. It is based on presuming the "70 years" is an unclear reference, when it isn't. Josephus and the Bible link it to the last deportation which parallels the desolation of the land for 70 years - period! Now if you want to dismiss that as a historical revision, then that's one thing. Maybe Doug Mason is bold enough to do that. COJ wants to compromise on it. But that's what you must do at this point. That's long before then trying to twist the Biblical reference into a 66-year reference to Babylonian domination by arguing a Hebrew word means "for" vs. "at" Babylon.

    That's why, when someone calls you "crazy" or "desperate" or something like that, 99% of the time they are running from the academic confrontation and debate they have already lost. Anyone who has an opinion and who is academically qualified can just state that opinion. Martin Anstey claims the 1st of Cyrus should begin the "70 weeks" and concluded there must be 82 years of fake Persian history. Is is a crazy idiot? Is he demonized? No. He's just having an interpretation and an opinion. So its on the table for discussion. You don't have to agree with it. But if someone does say "he's crazy!" then you know someone is afraid of that concept. People who run from you or call you crazy, already know they don't want to be proven wrong in public. The MOST anyone can say in a discussion board like this, is: "I respectfully agree to disagree with you on that point" and then move on.

    So it makes you wonder, with the WTS so mind-controlling and dogmatic, why some XJWs can't stand for others to have an opinion that varies from their own. The Bible says always be able to make a defense for your faith or what you believe in. The witnesses forget about that when faced with tough questions and some XJWs here also don't feel they need to do that if they are dealing with a "lunatic", so they call you a lunatic to run from the confrontation.

    CONCLUSION: Anyway, the idea of the 70 years being "symbolic" doesn't get a chance to come up since the 70 years are applied to the last deportees and the desolation of the land by Josephus, a Jewish historian reporting on and/or interpreting his own Jewish history. So it's not up for grabs for anything other than the record, including anything symbolic, but especially if it doesn't work unless you make 70 years 66 years like COJ does, which is beyond pathetic, it's ridiculous and laughable.

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Lars *** So, again, maybe you need to explain further or confirm for me that you are not mixing the "7 times" up with the "70 years." ****

    There is no explaining to do, based on the Bible and evidence of its application in real life, 70 years can be symbolic like a life span of a human, or a kingdom or can be literal. What needs to be confirmed is, can we or should we use such procedures to set a date for Christs return ?

    Did not Christ tell his disciples that certain things were not for them to know, and the important thing was to be his witnesses on earth. Acts 1:7-8, ? It's been 2000 years approx.(dates lol,) since He gave this commission, millions have accepted his new life during this time, and received their eternal rewards without dates. Dates are not a requirement for salvation, I don't have to be right about dates. It only becomes important to people who are claiming a Christ like authority base on dates.

    Hebrews 9: 27-28, tells us plainly that when Christs come back it will be NOT to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him ! OR verse 27, if we die before his final coming.

    27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

    Shalom friend

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Lars! Psychiatrist! Go! Now!

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Larsinger58:

    Now, in their defense, there is clearly no way to get around 2 Chronicles 36's reference to the land paying back its sabbaths for 70 years.

    You're quite wrong. The land paid 'sabbaths' for 49 years from 587BCE until 538BCE. Paying sabbaths is a reference to the discussion of sabbaths in Leviticus chapters 25 and 26. In particular, Leviticus 26:28 states that they would be punished "seven times", and 25:8 further specifies a period of "seven sabbaths" as 49 years. The statement about paying sabbaths at 2 Chronicles 36:21 is a direct quote of Leviticus 26:35.

    The land paid its sabbaths until the Jews' return in the beginning of the reign of Persia, which was associated with the end of the 70 years. But paying sabbaths was not the word of Jeremiah, despite the JW's (and Lars') distortion of 2 Chronicles 36. This is entirely consistent with the statement at Jeremiah 29:10 that after Babylon's 70 years, attention would then be given to the return of the Jews.

  • villagegirl
    villagegirl

    Larsinger58 - Have you ever thought of starting your own religion? Seriously, I have read Russells original books,or as much as I could of them and he has nothing on you. You could do it dude, you have the rambling stream of consiciousness thing going on. Now you need a costume, a building, some pamphlets, possibly a choir ? Your on you way. You need a logo, a name, something catchy .... hmmm

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Larsinger58:

    Jerusalem did not fall in year 18, but year 19!! 607 BCE is based on year 18 of Nebuchadnezzar II.

    607 is wrong. We all know this.

    But Lars' error here about the 18th and 19th years relates to the accession and non-accession dating systems. This is aptly demonstrated by comparison of 2 Kings 25:8 and Jeremiah 52:12 with the Babylonian interpolation at Jeremiah 52:29.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    villagegirl:

    Have you ever thought of starting your own religion?

    Are you kidding? It's fairly apparent that he thinks of little else. Encouraging his delusion is like teasing the chimps at the zoo.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    But if someone does say "he's crazy!" then you know someone is afraid of that concept. People who run from you or call you crazy, already know they don't want to be proven wrong in public.

    Of course, it's only the other crazy people in the world who are really crazy. Lars is just misunderstood.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    • 609 (summer/autumn) Babylon becomes world power after conquering Assyria’s final capital, Harran. Seventy years of nations serving Babylon begin, then Babylon will be 'called to account'.
    • 605 (summer) Battle of Carchemish
    • 605 (August/September) Nebuchadnezzar's accession year begins.
    • 604 (February) Jehoiakim becomes vassal King to Babylon. Pays tribute for 3 full years. Tribute includes Daniel* and others as captives, third year of Jehoiakim and accession of Nebuchadnezzar.
      *Historicity of Daniel is disputed but timing is consistent. Daniel uses Nisan-based dating and doesn't enumerate accession years.
    • 604 (March/April) Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year begins.
    • 601 (summer) Nebuchadnezzar attacks Egypt, unsuccessfully.
    • 600 (early) Jehoiakim rebels after learning of Nebuchadnezzar’s attack on Egypt.
    • 598 (December) Nebuchadnezzar sieges Jerusalem.
    • 597 (March) Nebuchadnezzar takes exiles including Ezekiel. Jehoiachin placed on throne.
    • 594 (August) Jeremiah tells Jews already in Babylon that Babylon will have 70 years, and attention would be turned to return of the Jews after that.
    • 590 (December) Zedekiah rebels, siege begins.
    • 587 (August) Jerusalem destroyed, temple burned. 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, the 11th year of Zedekiah.
    • 587 (August) The seventy ‘weeks’ begins.
    • 539 (September) Babylon is 'called to account'. Darius the Mede conquers Babylon (September); is governor until arrival of Cyrus.
    • 539 (October) King Cyrus arrives. Persia replaces Babylon as world power. Seventy years of nations serving Babylon ends.
    • 538 (March/April)* Cyrus makes decree for Jews to return home. End of the ’7 weeks’, Cyrus acts as ‘Messiah‘ (literally “anointed one”), per Isaiah 45:1.
      *Decree most likely made during Cyrus' accession, allowing two months' preparation; can be no later than May, allowing 4 months' travel from June through September.
    • 538 (October) Jews repatriated in cities, back in land 49 years after Jerusalem destroyed (seven Sabbaths of years), making the following year a Jubilee year.
    • 537 (May) Temple construction begins, 50-year Jubilee* after destruction of the old temple.
      *It is undetermined whether this aligns with an actual Jubilee year per the Jewish calendar. Irrespective, the period is representative of a Jubilee period.
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
  • 539 (September) Babylon is 'called to account'. Darius the Mede conquers Babylon (September); is governor until arrival of Cyrus.
  • 539 (October) King Cyrus arrives. Persia replaces Babylon as world power. Seventy years of nations serving Babylon ends.
  • Note that in those lines (which were initially shown as one single bullet point), only "King Cyrus arrives" should be shown for October. The rest of that line should be on the previous line, and the end of the seventy years should really be shown before the 'calling to account'. Hence...

  • 539 (September) Seventy years of nations serving Babylon ends. Babylon is 'called to account'. Darius the Mede conquers Babylon (September); is governor until arrival of Cyrus. Persia replaces Babylon as world power.
  • 539 (October) King Cyrus arrives.
  • Sorry for any confusion

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