Carefully Stepping Around Jesus as the Mediator FOR ALL (Comments on CO Talk)

by LostGeneration 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Well my stomach was feeling especially strong today, so I decided to listen to a bit of the stuff posted by Mindnumbed (thank you!). Now I don't feel so good. Anyway, here is the one that was especially disturbing, even from my perspective as a non-Christian.

    God's "Will Is That All Sorts of Men Should Be Saved" (Circuit Overseer talk)
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/4weth9

    If you can take it, the first eight minutes are a real beauty. Based on 1 Timothy chapter two, the CO Adam Howell introduces 1 Timothy 2 at about 3:45 of the talk. Goes on to say "keep your finger there, were gonna come back" Great I think, he's going to have to read verse 5 real soon about the Mediator for all...this should be interesting!

    Nope. At 6:00 he returns to 1 Timothy 2, and makes the point several times that the verses apply to ALL MEN. But he skips straight to verse 6, talking about the corresponding ransom for all. Of course the application then turns to the JWs, basically telling them to get out there in the recruiting work because Jah wants all sorts of men to be saved.

    No mention of all in the talk about Jesus being the mediator FOR ALL....well I guess I shouldn't expect that, because then JWs would have no need for their masters in NY to serve as the channel to God.

    Anyway, I just found it interesting to how they tiptoe around topics like the mediator, lest they awaken their slumbering flock.

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Oh and be warned the CO has that creepy "CO voice"

    What do they do to these guys to make them all sound exactly the same?

  • nugget
    nugget

    I'm sorry I couldn't bring myself to listen to this. But it is interesting that they shy away from stating in the talk what they have expressed in print. I was truly shocked when I realised that the society had stated that Jesus was only the mediator for the annointed. It passed me by in the magazine which is what the society wants. It likes to keep the congregation asleep and dozing.

  • RayPublisher
    RayPublisher

    LG - I am gonna try and listen to that- if he is applying the other verses right around 2 Tim 2 to everyone, then how could he deny that Jesus is not our mediator?

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    Nugget- I don't blame you, trust me I read the WT online but haven't been to a KH or assembly in person in probably two years. Listening to their talks puts you right back there in an instant.

    Ray- The way he emphasizes "all men" even pointing to three instances where it says "all men" doesn't leave any room contextually when considering verse 5 along with the rest. But of course we know the powers at WT headquarters operate differently. In the end though, he applies the idea of all sorts of men being saved to the JW field serve-us work, not the idea that Christ saves.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I notice that professional clergy tend to sound the same. Lectors (the people who read the Bible in public worship) also are similar. I even raised it with the mother of a priest. Some techniques are taught in seminary. It could just be all the Witnesses micmicing (sp) each other.

    Someone posted a very funny animation here of a WT study. They nailed it on the head.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    I posted this on one of Blondie's WT summaries a couple of weeks ago. It seemed to fit in with your thread. (I copied it - I'm lazy today!)

    A couple years ago a man ranted with some sisters in field service about the NWT's "all sorts of" in 1 Tim 2:4. The sisters came to me and I checked the Greek and Lexicons and sure enough "all sorts of" is a possible translation of the Greek pas. Case closed. It only occurred later to me what the NWT was actually doing.

    Verse 4 says that God's will is for "all" / "all sorts of" men to be saved. Verse 5 starts out by saying "For" 'there is one mediator between God and men.' According to the AMG Greek lexicon, "For" is a causative particle ... expressing the reason for what has been [said] before." In other words, God wants "all" / "all sorts of" men to be saved as members of the covenant that Jesus mediates. The NWT can't say "all" because that would go beyond the 144,000 that the Society says are the only ones in that covenant. From their standpoint it has to be "all sorts of" or "all kinds of" as opposed to "all." Of course, the NWT doesn't mind saying "all" in 2 Peter 3:9 because there is no mention of the new covenant there. For the same reason they don't mind saying "all everywhere [should] repent" in Acts 17:30.

    Some time later we had a KM article on the need to preach to "all sorts of" people (the article quoting from 1 Tim 2:4). I told the PO that the writer of the KM article didn't understand why the Society said "all sorts of" in that verse and, in effect, the KM article was misapplying the verse (according to how the Society wanted it understood). The PO acted like he knew what I was talking about, but he didn't seem pleased that I would suggest that the KM writer was ignorant about such things.

    The Society uses 1 Tim 2:4, 5 one way when they talk about the new covenant and another way when it suits them. I have to give this to them, they "Adroitly (as in with great skill) set aside the commandment of God in order to retain [their] tradition." Mark 7:9

    [end of copy]

    I might add, it is understandable that they would skip around verse 5 since their application of it is contrary to the context. An additional point to show their misapplication is in the phrase in verse 5; "... between God and men." In the Greek text, "men" is without the definite article. You would think if Paul meant a small, select, and limited group of men, he would have used the article to define them (as in "... between God and THE men") The lack of the article before men would give it the sense of 'men in general', that is, humans, not just males. (Of course, implied in that is that they would be believing humans.)

    I was at the one day a couple of weeks ago and I listened closely to this discussion. The CO did the same as in your recording. No doubt sticking closely with his Society provided outline.

    My grandaughter just got on my lap, so I have to quit typing now.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Hopscotching the Bible is a favorite WT tactic.

    I wonder how many in the audience had no idea that a verse was skipped.

  • RayPublisher
    RayPublisher

    A video about 2 Tim 3:4,5 and how Jesus is everyone's mediator here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV2WcRWfcIA

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    Hey Ding!

    One imagines only the awakened ones would notice something as obvious as deliberate skipping of a particular inconvenient fragment. After all the system has inbuilt busy-ness and "hopscotch" so it's rather hard to spot when random touch downs or random misses are not actually random.

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