Getting the correct translation of Jeremiah 29:10

by drew sagan 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  drew sagan

  Many of us on the board are familiar with the 607 debate and how vital it is to JW theology.One thing that comes up is the verse in Jeremiah 29:10; in the New World Translation it reads:
  
  

  For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’ - Jeremiah 29:10 NWT

  
  This is basically the same way the King James (an a number of other translations) render the verse. The assumption is that the 70 years 'at Babylon' means 70 years of desolation for Jerusalem. But as many of us already know many newer translations do not render this verse like the King James does. Instead a key word is changed and 'at Babylon' become 'for Babylon' or something of the like.
  
  

  This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. Jeremiah 29:10 NIV

  This gives us a toally differant meaning to the verse. No longer do we see Jeremiah speaking of the desolation of Jerusalem, but instead the context appears to be speaking of Babylonian supremacy. I was wondering if there is anybody out there (ahhemm Leolia) who can give us possibly some more details into the language in this verse and why 'for Babylon' is correct. Also, what versions Jeremiah were they using to translate the King James that made it come out 'at Babylon' and what versions are used to translate the 'for Babylon' in the more modern versions.Just interested in getting a few more details about this verse that anybody out there might know.
  
  -Drew
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  Leolaia

  We had a thread in May 2005 that went into very deep detail on this. I could maybe post the gist of it later tonight, but if someone can find that thread, you can read about it there as well. But in short, "for" or "belonging to Babylon" is the best translation that captures the sense of the lamed preposition in this particular grammatical construction (particularly with the verb meaning "fulfill").
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  Narkissos

  Everything on this topic here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/87714/1.ashx

  (Very long but skimming through it you'll quickly get to the conclusive posts).
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  drew sagan

  You where the two people I was hoping would put me in the right direction on this. The Gentile Times book desribes this particuliar verse in some detail, but I was looking for just a little more.

  Thanks again.
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  Leolaia

  I found them...there are two threads that went on at the same time on this subject:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/87714/1.ashx

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/90425/1.ashx

  See especially the parallel verses from the OT which have the same construction of ml' (or similar expression)+ (TIME UNIT) + le phrase:

  Proverbs 4:10: "Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings, and the years of your life will be many". [Jenni gives the formula rbh "viel sein (Jahre)"; these are YEARS pertaining to ONE'S LIFE]

  Genesis 26:8: "And it came to pass, when his days had been prolonged, Abimelech king of the Philistines looked through the window". [Jenni gives the formula 'rd "lang sein (Tage)"; this is a prolonging of DAYS pertaining to HIM]

  Genesis 50:3: "And forty days were fulfilled for him; for this is how they fulfilled the days for those being embalmed". [Jenni gives the formula ml' "voll werden (Tage/Jahr[e])"; this is a fulfilling of 40 DAYS pertaining to HIM/THOSE EMBALMED]

  Leviticus 25:30: "And if it is not redeemed until an entire year is fulfilled for it, the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to the buyer". [Jenni gives the same formula as above; this is a fulfilling of an ENTIRE YEAR pertaining to THE HOUSE]

  Jeremiah 29:10: "When seventy years are fulfilled for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place". [Jenni gives the same formula as above; this is a fulfilling of SEVENTY YEARS pertaining to BABYLON]

  Hope this helps!
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  drew sagan

  Leolaia,
  
  I didn't see it in those posts (but I'm still looking since they are damn long) if there is any discussion as to why older versions such as the KJ state that it is 'at Babylon'. I had a personal hunch that it was because they where simply interpreting as they translated, but I really don't know.
  
  My main reason for this is because I have an Elder friend who is quite sincere that is willing to sit down and read about some of these things that I can present to him. I know he will really listen and not just give it a passing glance. I figured the more he is able to see the relation between a mistranslated KJV and a mistranslated NWT the possibility will be there that he can possibly see they are interpreting scripture to fit theology.
  
  So really, I wanna know how the 'at Babylon' started in the first place. Or at least an explanation I will be able to provide for him that he will be able to understand.
  
  Also, the examples you gave above where excellent. Thanks
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  AnnOMaly

  I didn't see it in those posts (but I'm still looking since they are damn long) if there is any discussion as to why older versions such as the KJ state that it is 'at Babylon'. I had a personal hunch that it was because they where simply interpreting as they translated, but I really don't know.

  I can't give a comprehensive answer, but wasn't it something to do with the KJV being influenced by the Latin Vulgate that says 'in Babylone'?
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  drew sagan

  AnnOMaly, you are correct. I've been looking deeper and deeper the past hour or so and it's starting to fall into place bit by bit.
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  AnnOMaly

  Your elder friend might be willing to consider that the context of Jer. 29 doesn't fit with the idea of the exiles being AT Babylon for 70 years (under the WT model). They would be there a decade longer (having been taken in 617 [WT time]), so why give them false hopes of being there 70 years?
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  drew sagan

  I just wanted to add that for the past two hours I have been paging through the discussion topic that went pretty deep on this matter.
  
  I simply can't believe you guys kept at it day after day with that thread. I don't think the patience of Narkissios, Leolaia, and Alan F can be matched by any other human on this planet.