Posts by waton

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

the covenant was not it effect until jesus died

ok, so would the partaking of the apostles have less of an effect at the last supper, than after, in subsequent celebrations ? (in the first passover after Pentecost, Peter was in prison, was freed, and there was no "Memorial" going on when he met up with the rest of them. bsw).

No direct effect of Jesus' ransom death has ever been scientifically detected. Even wt concedes that newer aspirants to the 144 000 *might be even less perfect mentally than average, now that they imbibe of the symbols that are supposed to bring perfection. * on topic

not sure what the SDA does ...

neither am I, but since they and Mormons eschew alcohol,? At the marriage miracle, Jesus' wine was potentially pretty potent. ( The attendants did not want the guest getting any more drunk. [DWI laws in effect already for Charioteers then]?)

so you are a theist but believe the bible is nonsense , what's that ? Paganism ?

No, not Theist, but a Deist, as in Deism, belief in a creator (the universe did not make itself), but the creator does not fiddle with it since it's beginning, like performing rib removal and cloning, flooding it, confusing languages, changing the rotation of the Earth, sending beings to Earth to be killed, to satisfy a killer instinct.--- Thomas Paine , Age of Reason. ca. 18 00 CE, one of it's exponents. google it please.

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

i did read about that , the nazis did in fact behead some , not sure they were claiming GC or LF, my point is that it appears to me that you have to preach-- Jesus.

Nu-lyte: 1650+ Jws died in the camps, persecution, some more perhaps because they refused war work on the front. true martyrs. but by comparison, the German army executed 20 000+ of their own for refusing combat, desertion.

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

how to remember him in his covenant , he told them to expect it , first one was a dry run , they had to keep doing it until they were martyred to qualify , it replaced the Passover . If you don't believe fine by me but we are discussing the belief , you atheists enter these threads and don't even want to discuss it usually ... no point in continuing

Nu-Lyte: that is clever and funny, the last supper was a dry-run. may be like the SDAs that use grape juice? seriously, I am not an Atheist, but a Deist, willing to discuss any aspect of the bible stories , objectively.

Talking of the 144k and covenants. The cup was the NEW COVENANT, wt makes a quick sleigh of hand to make it the KINGDOM COVENANT.

All should be in the New covenant (forgiving Adams sins), and partake, John 6.

then, you can sacrifice everlasting life on Earth to gain the upward calling. Jesus sacrifices, as the second Adam, his right to everlasting life too remember?

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

Like wise, with respect, they have addressed it every day since their inception. I have no idea what “billions” of partakers you could mean. The sum total of all witness to ever live isnt a billion let alone the comparative few have partaken. The org teaches nobody outside is saved so you cant mean all other nominal christians who partake.

of course wt does not want to acknowledge that the billions of "Christians", (currently 2.3 billions) even exist, spiritually speaking. To wt there were only 80 partakers anointed per year since 033 AD. whereas in reality there were billions. According to that bizarre wt view point, these billions of drinkers of wine and eaters of wafers will be in paradise. I do believe that wt teaches that all pre 1914 church members will be resurrected, the unrighteous Jesus spoke about. Wt has not sunk that low, to teach that nobody except the 80 per year will be saved.imho.

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

This is the only religion I know of that actually acts out the last supper in the fashion of the first church .

many interesting points you have, but the above one is wrong, because when Jesus passed the emblems, none of his disciples were anointed. Even he expressed himself as one with an Earthly hope, "sitting on tables, drinking wine himself in the kingdom, ruling Israel". So to follow Jesus, all should partake. who knows they might be anointed later. or worse, the anointed should not partake, because the only anointed at the last supper, Jesus, did not.

The big problem, and you will come to that, perhaps, is, that it is all stories. There never was a talking snake,or donkeys, An Ark floating above Everest, Millions trekking in the desert for 40 years. Jonah eaten by a fish, the Earth standing still or even rotating backward, people walking on water, people coming out of the graves and invading Jerusalem.

These are stories on the credibility level of Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad Wolf. badly written bible babbel.

don't take it too seriously for too long.

If there is a communion tradition, fine, let the anointed serve and the OS eat and drink.
P.S. sorry you mentioned the Early Church, and I described the original last Supper, , already a difference had developed.

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

Waton said:

There is the rub for wt, although they deny there was an Earthly Calling before 1914-18, WT theology implies, that, with perhaps 134 000 sealed/dead before 1914, the m/billions of previous partakers, if they did not commit the "sin against the holy spirit", must be resurrected on Earth.

Morpheus said:

False, they do not deny an earthly hope prior to 1918. They believe anyone faithful from abel until jesus death had an earthly hope.

With due respect, Wt to my knowledge has never publicly addressed the issue what happens to the billions that took the bread and the wine, but forgot that they should have stopped at 144 000. The above paragraph was limited in scope to the wt delusion, "bible written only for partakers", covering the period of communion sharing, not the whole human history. Neanderthals and all.

MBillions in paradise will be past partakers! If the wt hope, based on the talking snake has merit.

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

In JW theology, "Other sheep" do not exist apart from the "Great Crowd" in the Christian Era

You might be right, the two terms define sub-groups of the "Earthly Class". The great crowd are only mentioned in Revelation aka "the Lord's day". There really is no Great Crowd before Armageddon*, because they come out of the great tribulation, and that has not happened yet.
There is the rub for wt, although they deny there was an Earthly Calling before 1914-18, WT theology implies, that, with perhaps 134 000 sealed/dead before 1914, the m/billions of previous partakers, if they did not commit the "sin against the holy spirit", must be resurrected on Earth.

OS, whether they, or wt likes it, or not. There will be millions of partakers in paradise!

All earthly-bound humans, aka the 12 Tribes of Israel, are of the non-anointed Sheep, or wt's Other Sheep.

the real OS are Cornelius and later gentile anointed. bsw.

* wt 1995 April 15, Question from readers. right column, par 3.

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

144K is a random number

he might have been insecure, senile, high on whatever, but he was persistent:

gave it 3 times, twice in numbers, once as a multiple of 12, x12x10^3.

so, to debunk it, use it.

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

"--if they died of natural causes in the first century they were believed to have sinned--" bold added for emphasis

Since 1914, the generation, here are not many WT "anointed"(none of the prominent ones) that did not die of natural causes. They all did.

Only the victims of the Nazi executions, mostly by the "fall axe", we know of, but how many of them took the emblems? where Christians?

52

144000 The numbers don't add up

by LevelThePlayingField in

in 1935 there were 63,146 who attended the memorial and 52,465 partook.

(proclaimers book page 717).

according to the bible teach book on page 78, it says, “since the days of the apostles, god has been selecting faithful christians in order to complete the number 144,000”.

waton

Since the WTS Great Crowd members only began to be called in 1918, the total number of faithful Christians over 1900 years was under 150,000.
"For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government." (The Watchtower February 15, 1982, p. 30)
"For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number --

If you, Van der Hofen are still in the hof, defend the wt doctrine, then

Can you, as you must, see the problem for wt here? That consigns millions if not billions of people that considered themselves "Christian", "anointed", to be of the un-anointed wt earthly class, the other sheep that already died, that do not come out of, survive the Great Tribulation. so:

Wt has an extended 2 group systems:

1) for the anointed generation a) Those that died since 1914 and b), the now living overlappers:

2) a) for all the anointed that died since Stephen and were resurrected in 1918 and b) the ones that die now to wait for the marriage of the lamb after the GT.

3) a) for the other sheep, those that live after 1918 (millions will never die) and those b) that lived before,

4) a) the generation of other sheep since 1914 that are dead and will be resurrected ( wt hopes) and b) those that will never die. (every JW hopes, but does not really believe yet)

5) a) the OS that survive the GT, and b) those that will be born in the New World.

6) a) those OS that will make it through the final test and those b) that will see Gehenna

7) For those of the Other Sheep that survive Armageddon and a) are/or will be married in the NW, and those that b) are not married, because they are resurrected.

7. Those that are a) princes, princesses and those b) that are just subjects, sheep.

Divide and conquer. con period.