Posts by konceptual99

362

No 'Tight Pants' policy is now official - classed as 'disturbing'

by wizzstick in

in short:- tight pants is no longer just a am3 hang up (or is that a hang up on the well hung?

)- brothers who have effeminate body language are flagged up- as are sisters with 'masculine' hair styles or dress- such dress is 'disturbing to the congregation'- the above must heed the (repeated) counsel from the elders...or they get stripped of the right to share on the ministry- however...this will not be revealed (announced) to the congregation.

wow.

konceptual99

It's not unprecedented for the WTS to allow unwritten rules to be perpetuated through an internal cultural osmosis. Beards is a classic example. They have had to officially quell some of these such as the infamous white shirts for public speakers and disfellowshipped people having to sit at the back for example.

The fact that they have certain expectations for dress whilst engaging in "spiritual" activities is also hardly new and not exactly cultish or abnormal behaviour when taken in isolation.

I do think, however, that this particular counsel and, most specifically, the sanction for repeated failure to listen to the elders is something unprecedented. I've never heard of anything else that would preclude someone from being able to share in the ministry, especially given no other internal sanctions apply, such as typical restrictions on answering, giving talks and the like.

Participation in the ministry is something that is a requirement for those wanting to be baptised. It's considered a command from Jesus and therefore as good as a personal instruction to each baptised Witness.

The lack of transparency or clear guidelines to elders is a concern as it leaves them free to implement things anyway they see fit. I know a number of elders who will be rubbing their hands in glee at this.

Having looked a little more at the typical information on the history of the term "metrosexual" I think I can see why the WTS has picked up on this. A simple google search brings back lots of results that show a relationship to homosexuality. My personal opinion is that this is very blurred now with the passage of time however I think the WTS see a directly link between the cultural foundation of the term and it's evolution into the modern sartorial and groomed styling that is very common today.

I think it is this that they refer to when the CO's outline says "Since this sort of dress and conduct is popular in the world, some may not be aware of the improper message that their dress and grooming sends to others".

I will be very interested to see how this develops over the coming weeks. Will there be lots more talks on dress and grooming? Year ago, when the fashion was for baggy suits there was a talk about it at the CA. It just washed over most of the heads of the young people.

We have CO visit imminently. We also have a CA very soon as well. I am going to wear skinny trousers to the CA and on the Sunday after the elders have met with the CO and see if there is anything said directly.

43

Evidence of God.

by Jaewook kim in

sugar water will show blue light over the sun.. salt water will show red light over the sun.. our body components, salt sugar water.. blue blood vein and red blood... definition of our body in his form.. this is the evidence, of our god..

konceptual99

Why have I only just seen this? Having read the thread now, I don't know what is more crazy.

The OP on this thread or the thread on JWT claiming that the Pangaea breakup was caused by the Flood.

362

No 'Tight Pants' policy is now official - classed as 'disturbing'

by wizzstick in

in short:- tight pants is no longer just a am3 hang up (or is that a hang up on the well hung?

)- brothers who have effeminate body language are flagged up- as are sisters with 'masculine' hair styles or dress- such dress is 'disturbing to the congregation'- the above must heed the (repeated) counsel from the elders...or they get stripped of the right to share on the ministry- however...this will not be revealed (announced) to the congregation.

wow.

konceptual99

Only just caught up on this topic so apologies if I am repeating anything anyone else has said.

Firstly I think Simon has a point - a conservative Christian sect making some internal noise about clothing styles and blurred gender stereotypes is hardly front page news. In that context I would agree that the import of this could be overblown compared to other aspects of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I think that the real issues with what is going on in this CO delivered "counsel" are far more insidious and less obvious. I note that they have been touched on by a few so apologies again if I am raking over old coals.

1 - CO delivery. The first problem is this is delivered by the CO to the elders. Anyone with experience of being an elder knows this is a great way to disseminate something which they would never want to be seen to be making a rule on. Elders hear the words but don't see the outline. The interpretation and implementation is left up to each BoE and rarely followed up with anything that presents clear direction for the BoE to follow. Perhaps there will be a follow up letter or even some kind of WT but right now this info will filter through the bodies globally and be implemented as they see fit with no consistency or even any guidelines on which to refer.

2 - Lack of transparency. This matter and the potential for it meaning a person is not long able to go on the ministry is completely unknown to the majority of the congregation. How will someone know? I expect individuals will be talked to and perhaps there will be a flurry of poorly delivered local needs items but there will be no possibility of reference to some publication or letter as nothing exists.

3 - Lack of analogous precedent. I can think of no other circumstance where a baptised member of the congregation is not permitted to go on the ministry. Individuals may have restrictions on answering, participation in the school and so on, but the organisation has been very careful not to prevent ones going in the ministry if they wish - it's a command from Jesus.

Fashion styles and fads come and go, the organisation does constantly remind people about not reflecting the "spirit of the world" but never has threatened some kind of sanction or disciplinary process. Now someone can be hounded, without any warning or transparent benchmark, on the basis of their style of clothing or (worse), potentially by their mannerisms.

No other behaviour by a baptised Witness carries such a sanction. Getting reproved, marrying out of the lord, being a paedophile for goodness sake - no of it prevents ones from going on the ministry. What is is about this matter that scares them so much?

4 - No benchmark. There is zero guidance on what is acceptable or unacceptable here. Is it clothing? Is it mannerisms? Is it an attitude? There are no examples of what the organisation considers to be unacceptable. Does being groomed or wearing a modern, slim fitting, tailored suit mean you are wearing the wrong clothes or a homosexual?

It promotes a stereotype that somehow all gays can be identified by the way they look. Fair enough, this is hardly surprising, but the organisation has been leaning towards principles for years now after having been burnt with silly rules. Now they are moving back to unquantifiable rules implemented in a haphazard way.

To be fair, the sanction of not be able to go in the ministry is only supposed to be used in the case of one who blatantly and deliberately ignores counsel. The problem is that there is zero way that both elders and the "victim" can know what is acceptable or not acceptable. It's down to local interpretation.

This, in itself, is not unprecedented within the organisation - but to have something that gives top down approval to being able to crack down on someone for simply being themselves, with no transparency or controls, is yet pretty glaring example of unwarranted high control tactics that should be part of the overall picture of this organisation as a cult.

37

Jehovah’s Witness jailed for sexual activity with a child

by LevelThePlayingField in

source: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/jehovahs-witness-jailed-for-sexual-activity-with-a-child-8997/.

a jehovahs witness from stratford who took part in sexual activity with a 15-year-old girl has been struggling with those demons for the last seven or eight years, a judge has heard.. but pleas for craig allen, who was said to have support from the jehovahs witness congregation, not to be jailed cut no ice with a judge at warwick crown court.. the 43 year-old of evesham road, dodwell, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen sexually touched her.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunted her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who were now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. he did not force himself on her but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

konceptual99

Oh dear. You did have the makings of a reasonable debate about the age of consent, criminalisation and some aspects of Western social norms. The problem with introducing patriarchal and, frankly, medieval practices like selling your daughter (or worse) as some kind of cultural difference we should be paying respect to it completely undermines whatever basis there was for rational discussion about what could be acceptable and responsible behaviour in a progressive society.

37

Jehovah’s Witness jailed for sexual activity with a child

by LevelThePlayingField in

source: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/jehovahs-witness-jailed-for-sexual-activity-with-a-child-8997/.

a jehovahs witness from stratford who took part in sexual activity with a 15-year-old girl has been struggling with those demons for the last seven or eight years, a judge has heard.. but pleas for craig allen, who was said to have support from the jehovahs witness congregation, not to be jailed cut no ice with a judge at warwick crown court.. the 43 year-old of evesham road, dodwell, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen sexually touched her.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunted her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who were now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. he did not force himself on her but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

konceptual99

Not sure if you have a daughter Warehouse, but as a father to girls you can be sure that if a married man of 35 was touching them up at 15, I would some be exhibiting some default human behaviour.

37

Jehovah’s Witness jailed for sexual activity with a child

by LevelThePlayingField in

source: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/jehovahs-witness-jailed-for-sexual-activity-with-a-child-8997/.

a jehovahs witness from stratford who took part in sexual activity with a 15-year-old girl has been struggling with those demons for the last seven or eight years, a judge has heard.. but pleas for craig allen, who was said to have support from the jehovahs witness congregation, not to be jailed cut no ice with a judge at warwick crown court.. the 43 year-old of evesham road, dodwell, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen sexually touched her.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunted her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who were now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. he did not force himself on her but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

konceptual99

Is anyone in a position to confirm what is meant by him having the support of his church? I wonder if they are simply refusing to DF him as he has expressed sufficient repentance?

As BB says - he repeated the offences over and over again. There are many "apostates" that have been thrown under the bus for a single unsubstantiated remark...

37

Jehovah’s Witness jailed for sexual activity with a child

by LevelThePlayingField in

source: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/jehovahs-witness-jailed-for-sexual-activity-with-a-child-8997/.

a jehovahs witness from stratford who took part in sexual activity with a 15-year-old girl has been struggling with those demons for the last seven or eight years, a judge has heard.. but pleas for craig allen, who was said to have support from the jehovahs witness congregation, not to be jailed cut no ice with a judge at warwick crown court.. the 43 year-old of evesham road, dodwell, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen sexually touched her.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunted her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who were now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. he did not force himself on her but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

konceptual99

I think it has to have criminality linked to it, simply to help reduce the risk of exploitation.

A 35 year old man in a relationship with a 15 year girl is not the same as a 45 year old with a 25 year old.

Consent does not equate with having the emotional and psychological maturity to be able to cope with such a relationship, especially with a married person. Regardless of her willingness and his "weakness", he never should have allowed it to happen.

37

Jehovah’s Witness jailed for sexual activity with a child

by LevelThePlayingField in

source: http://stratfordobserver.co.uk/news/jehovahs-witness-jailed-for-sexual-activity-with-a-child-8997/.

a jehovahs witness from stratford who took part in sexual activity with a 15-year-old girl has been struggling with those demons for the last seven or eight years, a judge has heard.. but pleas for craig allen, who was said to have support from the jehovahs witness congregation, not to be jailed cut no ice with a judge at warwick crown court.. the 43 year-old of evesham road, dodwell, was jailed for two years and eight months and ordered to register as a sex offender for life after he pleaded guilty to two charges of sexual activity with a child.. prosecutor andrew wallace said allen had met the girl in the mid-2000s through the church.. the girl, now a young woman in her 20s, said she began to fancy allen, who had started to pay her compliments.. then on one occasion when he gave her a lift, despite being fully aware she was only 15, allen sexually touched her.. she did not object or tell anyone what had happened, and there were further consensual incidents between them, including various types of sexual activity but not full intercourse.. someone who suspected what was going on between allen, a family man in his 30s, and the girl said something to her mother.. but when she challenged both her daughter and allen about what she had heard, they both denied it.. things stopped after the girl began to feel guilty about what was happening, and she eventually decided to come forward last year and contacted the police.. she said she had been dramatically affected by what had gone on, and that what happened with allen caused her to suffer a breakdown and still haunted her.. when allen was questioned by the police he accepted the incidents had taken place, but claimed it was the girl who had taken the lead.. elizabeth power, defending, said allen, who has a son and a daughter who were now both in their 20s, had attended for a voluntary interview with the police and made admissions.. he did not force himself on her but he was the adult and she was a child.

he says he was weak and was attracted to her.

konceptual99

Fair enough, the news that a 15 year old girl is sexually active is not exactly going to stop the presses.

Fair enough, the difference between sexual activity at 15 years 364 days and 16 years is (in the UK) one of legal status for consent.

Fair enough, a 15 year is perfectly capable of initiating sexual activity.

What is not fair enough is to give a married man in his 30s ANY slack or sympathy for allowing a relationship to develop with a 15 year old. He was the adult. He was aware of the law. To call the relationship inappropriate is an understatement. It is simply wrong.

Even if a 15 year could legally consent to sex, it does not make this sort of relationship appropriate or healthy.

112

Did an EX-JW wake you up to TTATT or did you put the effort to wake up yourself?

by John Aquila in

how many of us were woken up by some apostate yelling false prophets at a convention?.

how many of us were woken up by someone holding a sign and yelling, what happened to 1975.

how many of us were coerced to investigate the wt because some ex-jw pulled up a bunch of old watchtowers magazines and told us to read the false predictions?.

konceptual99

But did someone encourage you to read the book?
Or did you take it upon yourself to read it with no one telling you to do so?

Seriously speaking, I woke up myself in as much as no one else talked to me directly. There were a number of things that had got me thinking more critically and I started searching the web. I came across this site and it was from here that I got the courage to read CoC.

So, although I was self-motivated, it was the experience of people on this site and elsewhere on the web that gave me an outlet to express my frustrations and find routes to getting some answers. CoC, the works on 607 and JWFacts were key resources as well.

112

Did an EX-JW wake you up to TTATT or did you put the effort to wake up yourself?

by John Aquila in

how many of us were woken up by some apostate yelling false prophets at a convention?.

how many of us were woken up by someone holding a sign and yelling, what happened to 1975.

how many of us were coerced to investigate the wt because some ex-jw pulled up a bunch of old watchtowers magazines and told us to read the false predictions?.

konceptual99

Ray Franz woke me up through CoC :-)