several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.
fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.
a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.
Exactly Joe. Whatever their motives the whole thing is simply patriarchal self-indulgence that takes no account of the feelings of the victim.
Even if you concede that the WTS has the right to set any rules they like for membership and have these enforced through internal procedure there is no excuse for assuming they have some kind of authority and right to question people in this invasive way.
several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.
fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.
a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.
See http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/rape-fornication.php for more info.
It seems I am wrong, as recently as 2003 there is still the impression given that screaming is required and that the victim may feel guilty for not resisting more.
several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.
fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.
a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.
I am not 100% sure it would have been to determine if penetration had taken place. Don't forget that years back there was the view that if a woman did not scream or take other strong action to try and prevent a sexual assault then she could have essentially consented to sex and it would not be rape.
Given that it seems the BoE (probably on the Branch/CO recommendation) brought in some elders from outside the congregation and they were described as being old, perhaps they were still thinking about this old stance? I wonder if the question was designed to see if the girl had in some way infer consent to sex because she had not resisted enough "scripturally".
Despicable either way.
several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.
fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.
a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.
Stan - are there any written instructions from the watchtower society as to how these elders conduct these hearings--? what questions are required ? does any one know ?
Yes, The Shepherd the Flock of God book has the JC process documented. In terms of questioning this is what it has to say:
5. The committee should first seek to establish the facts and ascertain the attitude of the accused. This requires skillful and discreet questions. The judicial committee should be thorough but not inquire about needless details, especially in regard to sexual misconduct. However, in some instances, when Scriptural freedom to divorce and remarry may be an issue, details may need to be clarified. When the elders on the judicial committee feel that they have a clear picture, they may excuse the accused from the room and discuss the case and the individual’s repentance or lack thereof.
This would suggest that the Elders don't need to delve too much into detail. If they do then it's for their own benefit.
There may be more stuff in BoE letters as well.
several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.
fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.
a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.
I have just listened to the broadcast and was very impressed with the courage of the participants, especially the victims who had the courage to speak out.
I think it is only the benefit of a mental separation from the organisation that allows one to see the outrageousness of the methods the elders use. For those still loyal to the WTS then they see this in a completely different light. Joe, your example puts this in complete context and is one that I will use if at all possible.
I simply don't understand why the organisation cannot put an absolute and clear separation between the criminal and congregational aspects of an abuse allegation. Surely the sensible thing to do is say "let's go to the police, let them investigate, then we shall have the information on which to act from a Congregational perspective".
it's 1:30 am and i'm wide awake again as usual.
i was doing a little bible reading yesterday and.
came across luke 11:29 where jesus states " when the crowds were increasing, he began to say,.
if ray franz would have kept his mouth shut and not disfellowshipped, and remained part of the governing body how many of us ex-jw would still be trapped in the cult?.
would we have come this far?.
CoC definitely helped me be more open to questioning things but the doubts were there already.
I don't think we shall ever see anyone in the GB do what Ray did ever again.
earlier this week i bumped into a couple of jws who i recognised from the cult cart.
a few months ago i had a long conversation with him one of them and found him to be quite friendly.
he is new to the area in the years since i left.. this time he was very defensive and said he wasn't allowed to talk to me.
The argument about parents is one I am starting to hear from dubs to deflect responsibility away from the organisation. I am sure that in some cases abuse may not had happened or been less extensive had parents been less trusting with members of the congregation. However this does not mean you simply blame the parents.
Peadophiles become masters of subterfuge and manipulation. There is a reason the preparation of a child for abuse is called "grooming". The process is not limited to the child, it extends to the family and friends to enable abuse to occur. Often abusers are within the close or extended family, even parents.
I am sure there is not one parent of an abused child that does not look back and wish they had done things differently, regrets actions they made or decisions they took that in some way enabled an abuser to harm their child but to start blaming parents above the abuser is simply unfair and only deflects away from the real problem.
The WTS is allowing an over simplification of the cause of the problem to become a stock response. They are happy to let R&F Witnesses blame parents and become all indignant that parents or the victim have relied on the elders and not gone straight to the authorities. This kind of apologist nonsense has no place here.
so witnesses reject many practices or holidays due to their "unscriptural or pagan" origins.. for example, birthday celebrations, mothers or father's day, christmas etc..... most people in the world will say "but the origin doesn't matter anymore, we follow this custom now because it's a joyful occasion that creates happy times and brings the family together".
it is still firmly rejected.. so, if the wrong origin is so important, and should result in rejecting something, why isn't the same principle applied to the actual jehovah's witness faith itself!?.
after all, the very foundation of the organisation was based on wrong understandings of the bible, far fetched teachings and doctrines, links to false religious backgrounds, pyramidology, false predictions, inaccurate beliefs etc...... using their reasoning, it doesn't matter how good something is now, if the origin was faulty to begin with?
A great post which has double bubble bonus points for a fantastic response from Terry.
We really should have a "Lurkers Must Read" forum with links to threads like this one.
it is reported that one elderly sister in british columbia expressed complete disgust at what she considered an obscene act in the bethel 'happy song'.
now everything is, of course, subject to perspective.
i would imagine her perspective is just as valuable as anyone elses.
Elderly Witnesses can hardly recognise the religion they joined 40,50,60 years ago.
Some are just about keeping up with the rise of technology, JW Broadcasting events, dumbed down Bibles and rehashed promises. Howver, many are increasingly disenfranchised and either shutting up whilst they wait to die or papering over the cracks from their cognitive dissonance by convincing themselves that "it's all beyond me but Jehovah's chariot is speeding up".
