Posts by konceptual99

42

Preaching is a waste of time

by konceptual99 in

before anyone gives me the "bears/wood" similarities, this is a post based on insidethekh's reply on the mormon v jw thread.

(http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/287545/1/who-is-copying-who-jws-or-mormons) i like to see wt friendly posts on here as some of the wt bashing displays the same logical fallacies as levelled against the wts and it's followers so it's good to consider reasoned debate.. on the one hand i think itkh makes a fair point if you compare the worldwide success of mormons v jws but there is an overall context to the preaching work that is completely ignored by those fully "in" and has been a major factor in my move from being an active witness to one on the cusp of getting out.

from a statistical point of view there are great headline numbers presented by the wts but if you put them in the context of the number of witnesses, conversation ratios, ratio of new witnesses to birth rates, numbers that must be leaving, growth differentials across the globe, penetration in muslim nations and so on then these numbers become meaningless.

konceptual99

ITKH,

The point is not really about JW v Mormon statistics. My local pub football team can win 8-0 every week but it does not make them ready to face Real Madrid in the Champions League. Do the headline figures constantly promoted by JW publications and leaders really reflect a meaningful preaching and warning work when looked at in the context of how that translates on ground?

If the answer is that Jesus never said everyone would be reached and Jehovah will no doubt show compassion to the billions not reached then what is the point of all this time and energy expended by millions of Witnesses? Why not just bring the big A and let people make a truly informed choice?

8

Organic molecules detected by Philae

by konceptual99 in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30097648.

lots of detail to be added but very interesting news..... .

konceptual99

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30097648

Lots of detail to be added but very interesting news....

42

Preaching is a waste of time

by konceptual99 in

before anyone gives me the "bears/wood" similarities, this is a post based on insidethekh's reply on the mormon v jw thread.

(http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/287545/1/who-is-copying-who-jws-or-mormons) i like to see wt friendly posts on here as some of the wt bashing displays the same logical fallacies as levelled against the wts and it's followers so it's good to consider reasoned debate.. on the one hand i think itkh makes a fair point if you compare the worldwide success of mormons v jws but there is an overall context to the preaching work that is completely ignored by those fully "in" and has been a major factor in my move from being an active witness to one on the cusp of getting out.

from a statistical point of view there are great headline numbers presented by the wts but if you put them in the context of the number of witnesses, conversation ratios, ratio of new witnesses to birth rates, numbers that must be leaving, growth differentials across the globe, penetration in muslim nations and so on then these numbers become meaningless.

konceptual99

Spot on Sir82/Vidiot/SOP et al.

Once the spell is broken then the real purpose of the ministry becomes clear however to those still "in" the numbers matter as they are seen as an evidence of Jehovah's blessing. I have to raise this subject with anyone who has been able to demonstrate the WWW is a productive and effective exercise. They come up with a whole bunch of alternative such as:

it's a command from Jehovah
evidence of our faithfulness and obedience
no one said everyone would be reached
JW.org is there to reach those who we cannot reach
makes Jehovah's name manifest

...and more.

In fact the latest WT, in the article "Maintain Your Zeal For The Ministry", has the following list:

WHY MAINTAIN YOUR ZEAL FOR THE MINISTRY?

The preaching work contributes to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.—Mark 13:10.
We prove ourselves obedient by participating in the disciple-making activity.—Matt. 28:19, 20.
Jehovah wants the wicked to be warned about the consequences of their course.—Ezek. 3:19.
We owe it to people to share the good news with them.—Acts 20:26, 27; Rom. 1:14, 15.
Participating in the preaching work protects us from bloodguilt.—Ezek. 3:18.
Teaching Scriptural truth is a requirement for our own salvation, and it saves others too.—1 Tim. 4:16.
Speaking about Jehovah and praising him publicly are important features of our worship.—Heb. 13:15.
We demonstrate our love for Jehovah and Jesus by obediently doing this work.—John 14:15; 1 John 5:3.
Our ministry helps to counteract the lies that Satan promotes regarding Jehovah.—Isa. 43:10-12; 2 Cor. 4:4.

The question is how many of these are really being achieved by the preaching work as it stands.

Check out the scriptures above and see the repeated references to all nations, those that listen being saved and bloodguilt being wiped clean through the action of witnessing. There is little scope for 1 billion of the world's population not even getting a look in, many people who have heard the "good news" but ignored it being saved, population growth outstripping organisational growth and so on.

The taunt that those who wish to withdraw from the organisation withdraw from the ministry first reflects the fact that the ministry simply is a barometer as to your loyalty to the GB and not a meaningful way of preaching the "good news of the kingdom". Those that are awake can see this a mile off.

25

Who is copying who? Jws or Mormons?

by stuckinarut2 in

it amazes me!.

witnesses go on about how "blessed we are to have the website and all the content from jehovah etc".

but i have been noticing the parallels between jws and the mormons!.

konceptual99

ITKH - to save hijacking this thread I have starting a new one on the point you make about the relative success of JWs v Mormons worldwide. I'm interested in your response.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/287547/1/Preaching-is-a-waste-of-time

42

Preaching is a waste of time

by konceptual99 in

before anyone gives me the "bears/wood" similarities, this is a post based on insidethekh's reply on the mormon v jw thread.

(http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/287545/1/who-is-copying-who-jws-or-mormons) i like to see wt friendly posts on here as some of the wt bashing displays the same logical fallacies as levelled against the wts and it's followers so it's good to consider reasoned debate.. on the one hand i think itkh makes a fair point if you compare the worldwide success of mormons v jws but there is an overall context to the preaching work that is completely ignored by those fully "in" and has been a major factor in my move from being an active witness to one on the cusp of getting out.

from a statistical point of view there are great headline numbers presented by the wts but if you put them in the context of the number of witnesses, conversation ratios, ratio of new witnesses to birth rates, numbers that must be leaving, growth differentials across the globe, penetration in muslim nations and so on then these numbers become meaningless.

konceptual99

Before anyone gives me the "bears/wood" similarities, this is a post based on InsidetheKH's reply on the mormon v jw thread. (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/287545/1/Who-is-copying-who-Jws-or-Mormons) I like to see WT friendly posts on here as some of the WT bashing displays the same logical fallacies as levelled against the WTS and it's followers so it's good to consider reasoned debate.

On the one hand I think ITKH makes a fair point if you compare the worldwide success of Mormons v JWs but there is an overall context to the preaching work that is completely ignored by those fully "in" and has been a major factor in my move from being an active Witness to one on the cusp of getting out. From a statistical point of view there are great headline numbers presented by the WTS but if you put them in the context of the number of Witnesses, conversation ratios, ratio of new Witnesses to birth rates, numbers that must be leaving, growth differentials across the globe, penetration in Muslim nations and so on then these numbers become meaningless. The world wide preaching work is anything but.

You then have to square this with the regular counsel on preaching being a warning work, those not making a choice being in line for destruction, bloodguilt, narrow road to life/broad road to destruction against the double standard of most witnesses believing that Jehovah will spare billions that don't get a proper witness because he is compassionate.

The "leave it up to Jehovah" thinking simply invalidates the preaching work. It's better if people do not know. It's better if we don't speak to them.

The preaching work is a waste of time. The numbers don't stack up and the "scriptural reasoning" simply produces a ridiculous dichotomy.

I am ready to hear from anyone who considers that it is anything but a waste of time.

25

Who is copying who? Jws or Mormons?

by stuckinarut2 in

it amazes me!.

witnesses go on about how "blessed we are to have the website and all the content from jehovah etc".

but i have been noticing the parallels between jws and the mormons!.

konceptual99

Same but different. Check out the advice on education....

Some of my friends are dropping out of school to get jobs. I don’t really like school either, but I know education is important. What should I do?

“You are moving into the most competitive age the world has ever known. All around you is competition. You need all the education you can get. Sacrifice a car; sacrifice anything that is needed to be sacrificed to qualify yourselves to do the work of the world. That world will in large measure pay you what it thinks you are worth, and your worth will increase as you gain education and proficiency in your chosen field” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “A Prophet’s Counsel and Prayer for Youth,” New Era, Jan. 2001, 8).

The day I see that advice on jw.org is the day I regain my faith.

20

JW's donations going to sexual abuse cases?

by Ginx in

i read somewhere on the internet (don't recall what site it was) that jw's donations are going towards sexual abuse cases.. is this true?.

where can i find solid evidence regarding this matter?.

.

konceptual99

I wouldn't disagree with you ITKH.

32

Jehovah's organization growing like never before: but bible studies are way down. Huh?

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

so the governing body likes to keep claiming incredible growth.

at the same time they claim bible studies are way down.

are the finally admitting what we've known all along, that they can no longer recruit outsiders?

konceptual99

Yes, most western countries have "enjoyed" the "blessings" of growth, but the rate has dropped to 1-3% PA in general. All the big gains were many years ago. This is despite the amount of preaching activity and publications that have been shifted each year. This is despite the number of children being born and raised as Witnesses. Look at the numbers baptised and think about how many must be leaving each year.

In the US this year they have skewed the figures by taking in a number of other territories that they did not include previously. Figures for pioneers have been massaged by making it far easier to be an auxillary and ramping up leaflet drop ampaigns to at least 3 per annum. Getting in a couple of hours babysitting a trolley means hours will go up, as will essentially random, pointless, unqualified literature placements. All this means is that the hours and placement figures increase but the conversion ratio drops.

Yes, technically growth has been there year on year but any corporation would be concerned about the trends. They do not represent healthy, sustainable, organic growth.

I don't think that anyone on here is seriously contemplating the imminent implosion of the WTS but even a basic analysis of WTS figures gives some pretty clear indications of the problems the WTS faces over the next couple of decades.

20

JW's donations going to sexual abuse cases?

by Ginx in

i read somewhere on the internet (don't recall what site it was) that jw's donations are going towards sexual abuse cases.. is this true?.

where can i find solid evidence regarding this matter?.

.

konceptual99

Regardless, the insurance cover mentioned in the article is only paying for approaximately a third of the liability. The insurance also only appears to cover cases that take place after the insurance is in place. $6000 for $1m of cover is a heck of a premium to protect against $100m, $200m of liabilty. What would the cost of cover be to cover an organisation for an uknown historic liability?What about the cost of defending the case? Is that covered? If you are looking at reducing the cost of the insurance moving forward then the underwriters will want a clear and transparent child protection policy that ensures that ministers with access to children have gone through the required background checks. I would also expect some reluctance to payout unless WTS liability is 100% proven and the WTS is at pains to shift the blame onto rogue members.

I accept the WTS can get insurance but it still does not mean that dontated funds are protected.

12

Examining Genesis . Would your JW's ?

by Phizzy in

i was talking to a jw a short time ago and it emerged in conversation that he believed in the literal truth of the bible's first book, genesis.. no great surprise there, but he said something pertinent, he said, "if you don't, then the whole of our belief falls apart".. i was wondering if this may be of use to those who are endeavouring to "wake up" jw family or friends.

a proper examination of genesis could be encouraged in a gentle way, raising questions the j.w's must answer, ( you may have to insist they answer them, not shove them aside as they love to do ), and eventually they will have to get to the point, if they are at all honest, that genesis is simply not literal truth.. then, their whole body of belief is undermined.. simples !.

well, the idea is, the execution may be impossible, but i just thought the idea may be helpful ?.

konceptual99

I have used this tack several times and I think many Witnesses realise the dependancy on the varacity of Genesis. The problem is that the cog dis kicks in big time and they revert back to the "fundamentals" like " do I believe God exists, that he created everything and that he has a purpose?". It's where I was 2/3 years ago. They have to give themselves permission to ask the question "what if Genesis is not correct?".