Posts by konceptual99

35

Petty Gambling

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

according to the shepherd book.... .

the elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment.

they may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 31.. .

I agree about poker being a game of significant skill but try telling that to an elder. In some ways the same can be applied to all forms of gambling in that if you know how to, for example, read the form of horses then you can make a pretty educated estimation of which horse is more likely to win.

The problem then becomes one of semantics about how much skill, expertise and caution has been applied to make the likelyhood of winning a hand, predicting which horse will win or which team shall be superior etc. all but a formality and how much is guesswork, a punt or simply throwing good money after bad.

The WT seem unwilling to apply that logic to stocks and shares, where anything goes as opposed to what to the R&F is a blanket ban on any form of gambling. Except it's not quite.

Of course they have a point about the addictive nature of gambling, the harm that it does etc. but that does not prevent them from condoning plenty of other activities, notably the consumption of alcohol, that can be abused.

16

Two Roads... and the one I took made all the difference

by adjusted knowledge in

jw
friends

introduction to the faith.

ive been a lurker for many years now, and recently created an account to post comments.

someone suggested i should introduce myself and tell my story.

konceptual99

Welcome!

35

Petty Gambling

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

according to the shepherd book.... .

the elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment.

they may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 31.. .

konceptual99

Thanks for posting that Blondie. That's the WT referenced by the Shepherd book. As you have highlighted the article says gambling is wrong and clearly implies that any level of gambling should be avoided. There is nothing in that article that suggests if you do a little bit of penny stake stuff at home and don't influence anyone else then you're good to go.

35

Petty Gambling

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

according to the shepherd book.... .

the elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment.

they may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 31.. .

konceptual99

The porn thing is that you won't be DFed for habitually viewing porn unless it's hardcore stuff.

This is what the Sherherd book says under the section on what constitues porniea (i.e. cause for a JC to be formed)

An entrenched. practice of viewing, perhaps for years, abhorrent forms of pornography that is sexually degrading. Such pornography may sadistic torture, bondage, gang rape, brutalizing of women, or child pornography. conduct would be involved if the was promoting such material, such as inviting others to view it, thus giving evidence of a brazen attitude.-w06 7/15

I am sure there is something somewhere which I can't find right now which suggests that an appointed man can remain in his position even if caught viewing porn if it can be established it's a one off. I might be wrong on this - can anyone clarify?

35

Petty Gambling

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

according to the shepherd book.... .

the elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment.

they may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 31.. .

konceptual99

Stocks and shares have been dealt with many times and are not considered as gambling. For example:

g00 10/8 pp. 25-27

A Corporate Lottery?
In view of the risks associated with the stock market, is buying stock the same as gambling? A measure of risk is involved in nearly all financial investments. Some people buy real estate, not knowing if the value of a property will increase or decrease over time. Others deposit their money in a bank, trusting that their savings will be secure. While the stock market is more complicated, simply put, one who invests in stocks buys the shares of a company in the hope that the enterprise will prosper and the stocks will increase in value.
Such an investment differs from gambling because the stockholder has purchased part of a company. These shares may be sold to another person or saved in the hope of future growth. This cannot be said of a person who bets money at a casino or on a game of chance. Against the odds, the gambler seeks to predict an uncertain outcome and win the loser or losers’ stakes.
How much risk should an investor accept? That is up to each individual to decide. Of course, it is not prudent to risk more money on an investment than one is willing to lose.

Hedge funds, futures, options, microcaps, spread trading etc. all carry levels of high risk than traditional company investment and could be considered gambling but I've never heard of anyone being counselled or sanctioned for this type of financial trading.

Equally I don't see this as a green light for the elders to participate in gambling. The WT uses the "wise christians" caveat so I can't imagine many elders would engage in any kind of card game with penny stakes. The odd MS might get away with it but this is basically them trying to stop the elders having to make complex value judgements on those who don't toe the ideal line 100%. It's just the same as the porn thing. If an elder was found to be habitually viewing soft core stuff then he would probably eventually lose his position but the guidence means they can overlook some things, thereby preventing loads of appointed men being thrown off or even more people being DF'ed.

The hypocrisy in this is that there is even some get out mentioned, especially given the points raised by jwfacts.

35

Petty Gambling

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

according to the shepherd book.... .

the elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment.

they may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 31.. .

konceptual99

The Shepherd book is clear that gambling is a potential DF offence but seems to differentiate between repeated participation in gambling for personal greed (e.g. online, betting shops, racing etc. etc.) and small games for low stakes that might happen in families or as a casual thing amongst friends.

Some famillies may have occassional games where very low value coins are used and it seems that whilst the WT article tries to imply these are not acceptable, the Shepherd book tells the elders to avoid getting involved in judging people on this when you are talking about very low level gambling for "entertainment".

My thinking is where does the line get drawn? For example, if a Witness bought a lottery ticket on occassion, engaged in low level online poker, had a punt on the Grand National (the one race in the UK everyone has a pop on, often as part of a sweepstake at work), popped a couple ofquid into a slot machine in the pub on a Friday night etc. then could they argue it was purely for entertainment and the elders should butt out?

It seems to me a bit like the porn thing - if you know the hidden rules then you can get away with stuff that most ill-informed Witnesses would automatically assume was a no no.

35

Petty Gambling

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

according to the shepherd book.... .

the elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment.

they may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 31.. .

konceptual99

According to the Shepherd book...

The elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment. They may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 31.

The WT cited talks about games with family or small groups of friends. "Wise Christians" (TM) avoid this but it seems the elders will leave you alone if you keep quiet about it. I've never seen this before. Has anyone got any experience of this?

15

GB And Change: Lessons From Soviet History

by metatron in

jw
friends

i read an interesting book - "spymaster" by tennent bagley in which he offers a biography of a senior consultant to the kgb, based on long interviews with a man who was once his enemy (sergey kundrashev).

i believe the book proves some powerful insights into the workings of secretive totalitarian cults.. there are many parallels between the two organizations: they were both born out of 1914 events, they addressed each other as comrade/brother, they encouraged youth to become "pioneers/red pioneers", they were started as very individualistic (revolutionaries) -were then taken over and structured by an amoral thug-dictator (stalin/rutherford) , worshipped the "party/organization", emphasized collective thought over the individual, and ended up ruled by an elderly politboro/governing body - who were forced to contend with disruptive change.. .

but here's where the similarities get interesting:.

konceptual99

@kneehighmiah - good points. I was not aware that such letters had been read and that the meeting you describe had happened. It's true that the efforts required to attend the international conventions do impose further burdens on people so it will be interesting to see if this year's gripes continue into the following years.

@metatron - I think the scenario you portray is far more realistic. It's clear that there can be a collective effect of these individual actions. I also agree that each generation of young ones will have different attitudes. I don't doubt that change will be forced if the feedback from the CO's is that many in the congregations struggling with x or y. I still think that the society do have the trump card of the fear of apostates.

For example I only mentioned in jest the 100 year anniversary of Kingdom and was that the same as a 100 year birthday to a friend and was immediately met with a retort about apostate reasoning. This was from someone who is reasonably liberal (in JW terms) and non judgemental. You know how hard it is to be able to raise thought provoking questions in a group of people. I am sure you have been party to conversations about others who are drifting or are not seen as strong witnesses any more - the atmosphere gets pretty thick, pretty quick, with the judgemental and self righteous jibes about such ones.

I think that this fear of apostates is strong amongst most witnesses and is the most powerful tool that the WTS has in keeping people in line. I can't see it's power being diminished in the short term.

Having said that, and in line with the OP, history does show that totalitarian regimes do have a limited shelf life. It is clear that as less and less happens in line with Bible "prophecy" and the rules and regulations appear ever more unreasonable then more people will be inclined to simply not bother with those aspects of the "truth". It will be interesting to see if this is enough to bring about significant top down change (as per the Soviet parallel) or if the WTS will simply contract over time and shrink to nothingness.

15

GB And Change: Lessons From Soviet History

by metatron in

jw
friends

i read an interesting book - "spymaster" by tennent bagley in which he offers a biography of a senior consultant to the kgb, based on long interviews with a man who was once his enemy (sergey kundrashev).

i believe the book proves some powerful insights into the workings of secretive totalitarian cults.. there are many parallels between the two organizations: they were both born out of 1914 events, they addressed each other as comrade/brother, they encouraged youth to become "pioneers/red pioneers", they were started as very individualistic (revolutionaries) -were then taken over and structured by an amoral thug-dictator (stalin/rutherford) , worshipped the "party/organization", emphasized collective thought over the individual, and ended up ruled by an elderly politboro/governing body - who were forced to contend with disruptive change.. .

but here's where the similarities get interesting:.

konceptual99

True, there is a good number of defectors however they are in one of three camps:

- outside the org and vocal. These are viewed as hideous apostates and avoided like the plague

- outside the org and quiet. These are faders, df'ed/da'ed ones with no obvious axe to grind etc. They have little to no influence on those inside.

- inside the org and quiet. These are ones like me - fading, dissenters and "fifth column". We can't make much noise otherwise we very quickly get put outside the org. Sure, we can try and take a few down with us but once exposed we simply become lumped in with all the other apostates.

My point is that no matter how many people really feel it's a waste of time and wish they could do less, stop etc. no one really knows. In the old eastern bloc the dissenters eventually got together and changed things. As we have both alluded to, the police and army did nothing.

In WT land you cannot be a dissenter. The apostate badge is one easily applied, difficult to shake and made of dog shite. It's a badge of dishonour to anyone embedded in the WT loyalty regime. It will never be seen as something symbolising reform, inclusiveness and good sense. The "police and army" - the elders - will never avoid action against dissenters and give them tacit support. This is not a world power concerned about compromise, pragmatism and relations with other countries. This is a group of deluded men who think they are right and cannot be wrong.

Sure there might be catalysts for change and perhaps even the eventual collapse of the WTS but I don't see a grass roots "rebellion" ever gaining traction.

15

GB And Change: Lessons From Soviet History

by metatron in

jw
friends

i read an interesting book - "spymaster" by tennent bagley in which he offers a biography of a senior consultant to the kgb, based on long interviews with a man who was once his enemy (sergey kundrashev).

i believe the book proves some powerful insights into the workings of secretive totalitarian cults.. there are many parallels between the two organizations: they were both born out of 1914 events, they addressed each other as comrade/brother, they encouraged youth to become "pioneers/red pioneers", they were started as very individualistic (revolutionaries) -were then taken over and structured by an amoral thug-dictator (stalin/rutherford) , worshipped the "party/organization", emphasized collective thought over the individual, and ended up ruled by an elderly politboro/governing body - who were forced to contend with disruptive change.. .

but here's where the similarities get interesting:.

konceptual99

Interesting parellels. One point that is different however is that the Soviet setup had to contend with growing discontent and rebellion at the grass roots level. East Germany and Poland had rejected their communist masters with large numbers of people on the streets and little push back from the army and police.

The Soviets knew they had to do something that would allow control to be maintained and open rebellion prevented.

The difference with the GB and JWs in general is that there is no open rebellion. There is no route for authorised or even tolerated criticism. It's "our way or the highway". Dissenters are not seen, most importantly, by their peers as heros of the rank and file but as wicked, apostate rebels who deserve everything they get.

I see no burning need for change from the top down. Sure, they will have some concerns about money and the shedding of numbers in the more developed nations but they have plenty in the bank, assets to be realised, plenty more people coming in from developing nations and no need to take into the account the opinion of a kind of disgruntled underclass of intelligentsia.