Posts by TheWonderofYou

46

Jehovahs Witnesses and the Name , HOW Important. ?

by smiddy in

jehovah`s witnesses place great emphasis on the importance of god`s name as jehovah .so much so that they are often accused by christendom`s religions as substituting jehovah for christ.. the old testament ( hebrew scriptures identify god as the tetragrammaton four hebrew consanants yhwh and not jhvh.

as mistakenly believed by a 13th century spanish monk .. modern scholars including the j.w.`s agree that the more accurate pronunciation of gods name would be more nearer to yahweh than the name jehovah .. so why do j.w.`s insist on the name ?

jehovah ?

TheWonderofYou

That the Tetragrammaton was known by jesus and christians is clear but it was not pronounced and replaced by „Adonai“ hebrew and „kyrios“.

Look what the gospel writers did, they replace even "God" often with "heaven", "kingdom of heaven" instead of "kingdom of God".

It was a sign of respect of God not to use the title and the name, like jews do today.

That in some greek exemplars of the Olt Testament the Tetragramm was not transcribed as Kyrios does not mean that kyrios was false or that christians generally liked to pronounce the NAME .

Christian were not called „the people that pronounce the name“. That were not know as people who made blasphemy and were stoned to death in a row after pronouncing the name, ...because they did not do it.

__

But what did Jesus mean in his high priestly prayer?

I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, andI in them.” John 17,26
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=ESV
To make known Gods name meant simple to honour it, to put it on the first place in life. "Knowledge" has in hebrew the meaning of "loving" someone not merely lexical knowledge.
Jesus dit not need to pronounce the Tetragrammaton to make Gods name known.
The name of God was for Jews a sign of Gods presence. Jesus too was a sign of Gods presence called Immanuel [God is with us] by the church.
The revelation of the Name to Moses out of the firy thornbush was a sign of love and mercy towards Israel. "Making known Gods name" meant for Israel the beginning of a covenant of mercy.
When Jesus again "made known Gods name" to his people
- he gives a clear sign that he is willing to make a new beginning
- that it is time to repant, time for the kingdom, time for the forgiveness
- that he is here and present for gods people
- Jesus reveals the name JHWH with a new facet, that it doesnt merely mean
"Hey, I AM WHO I AM" but even more now in our time
"Hey, I AM here with you where you are, I love you",
"Hey, "I am with you in Jesus your brother who represents me in fullness"
" Hey, I am here to help you, to reconcile you, to save you, to redeem you from death"
"Hey if this one sacrifices for you his life, than he does what I would do for you, because I love you
to the utmost, when I am who I am and therefore being with you in the "

That is what the merciful revelation of "JHWH" means for Israel and Christians, the voice out of a thornbush.....
So Jesus was lately the best and perfect pronounciation of JHWH in the first century even if the correct pronounciation of the old Tetragrammaton was never again used, reminded and became forgotten. But the message of love remained.
That was a story as an example of change of notions about God.

46

Jehovahs Witnesses and the Name , HOW Important. ?

by smiddy in

jehovah`s witnesses place great emphasis on the importance of god`s name as jehovah .so much so that they are often accused by christendom`s religions as substituting jehovah for christ.. the old testament ( hebrew scriptures identify god as the tetragrammaton four hebrew consanants yhwh and not jhvh.

as mistakenly believed by a 13th century spanish monk .. modern scholars including the j.w.`s agree that the more accurate pronunciation of gods name would be more nearer to yahweh than the name jehovah .. so why do j.w.`s insist on the name ?

jehovah ?

TheWonderofYou

The notion of God is a product of the culture of the people and has developed.

Each generation made a new decision about what God meant for it or the myths meant for it.

For Israel God meant something else than for Abraham, for post exil something else than pre-exil.

Many Ideas changed, e.g. already 40 years before the exil jews decided not to pronounce the NAME any longer. Already forty years before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem an the exil the Distinguhed Name was not anly longer pronounced outside the temple.

This was the time when the honourable high priest simeon the righteous died. Since then the priests ceased to pronounce the name. From this time onward the Yhwh simply was called "the Name" or Shem ha-Meyuḥad ("the Extraordinary Name"; Sifre, Num. 143); as Shem ha-Meforash ("the Distinguished Name"; Yoma vi. 2); as Shem ben Arba' Otiyyot ("the Tetragrammaton" or "the Quadriliteral Name"; Ḳid. 71a); and as Yod He Waw He (spelling the letters of Yhwh).

The pronunciation of the written Name was used only by the priests in the Temple when blessing the people (Num. vi. 22-27); outside the Temple they used the title "Adonai" (Soṭah vii. 6; p. 38a). The high priest mentioned the Name on Yom Kippur ten times (Tosef., Yoma, ii.; 39b)

From that time the pronunciation of the Name was prohibited. "Whoever pronounces the Name forfeits his portion in the future world" (Sanh. xi. 1). Hananiah ben Ṭeradion was punished for teaching his disciples the pronunciation of the Name ('Ab. Zarah 17b).

As long as the Jewish courts exercised criminal jurisdiction, the death penalty was inflicted only upon the blasphemer who used the Ineffable Name (the Tetragrammaton)]; but the blasphemer of God's attributes was subjected to corporal punishment (Sanh. 56a).

____

Jesus respected this. He and the Apostels and the first christian did not pronounce the NAME, but they replaced it by Adonai or kyrios in greek. Thus they were not known as "jehovahs witnesses" at that time but as "witnesses of jesus". Why should today we call christians "jehovash witnesses" then.? But of course the honoured the unpronounced NAME by his deeds.

Dont forget that jesus was never accused by anyone of his enemies to have pronounced the divine name instead they rather accused him to do things that only God could do (forgive sins) or that he made himself similar to god. The jewish court did not sentence Jesus to death because he pronounced the Tetraggrammaton but because he agreed to be the Son of Man sittin at the right hand of the Mighty One [Eloah]“!

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
They all condemned him as worthy of death. Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2014%3A53-65

46

Jehovahs Witnesses and the Name , HOW Important. ?

by smiddy in

jehovah`s witnesses place great emphasis on the importance of god`s name as jehovah .so much so that they are often accused by christendom`s religions as substituting jehovah for christ.. the old testament ( hebrew scriptures identify god as the tetragrammaton four hebrew consanants yhwh and not jhvh.

as mistakenly believed by a 13th century spanish monk .. modern scholars including the j.w.`s agree that the more accurate pronunciation of gods name would be more nearer to yahweh than the name jehovah .. so why do j.w.`s insist on the name ?

jehovah ?

TheWonderofYou

Ucantnome

Sorry i dont wanna hurt any feelings, but the plates there dont fit to this building, in my taste.

12

EITHER or NEITHER or BOTH? FORGIVENESS vs ATONEMENT

by Terry in

on (new testament scholar) bart ehrman's blog, the topic of luke's view of the purpose of jesus'.

death has been discussed.. in that discussion, ehrman points out how luke did not set forth the idea of atonement, rather luke set forth the idea of forgiveness.. on the other hand, mark and paul teach atonement.. these two points of view have been "mashed together" into a package deal, apparently, throughout history by theologians.. _________________________.

someone pays a debt owed by another.

TheWonderofYou

Terry, I cant yet answer your question about the differences between Mark and Luke but I stumbled about this one, where Jesus used the "DEBTS" illustration too.

In the „Parable of the wicked slave“ God's standard and willingness to forgive is addressed.

Gods behave is an example for man. In jewish faith mercy, benevolence and readiness to forgive are ordered to man. Jesus illustrated the personal failures or transgressions as „debts“.

What is remarkable about God in the parable is that the „king“ released the „wicked slave“ or "unmerciful obligee"

from an awesome unimaginable high sum of debts (10000 talents* ~ USD 40 Mio. )

compared to the insignificant 100 denarii. (~ USD 70)

One matter is clear Gods standard is forgiveness.

The "wicked slave" does not forgive, comparable to a wicked slave class of people that we know well, the wicked slave class perhaps really exists.

Read the text as in NASB
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+18%2C23&version=NASB

“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’

And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe. So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

12

EITHER or NEITHER or BOTH? FORGIVENESS vs ATONEMENT

by Terry in

on (new testament scholar) bart ehrman's blog, the topic of luke's view of the purpose of jesus'.

death has been discussed.. in that discussion, ehrman points out how luke did not set forth the idea of atonement, rather luke set forth the idea of forgiveness.. on the other hand, mark and paul teach atonement.. these two points of view have been "mashed together" into a package deal, apparently, throughout history by theologians.. _________________________.

someone pays a debt owed by another.

TheWonderofYou

I found a story about FORGIVENESS

Paid In Full

The value of love.

A touching story to share before Yom Kippur*)

by Rabbi Go’el Elkarif

___

There is a fellow who owns a jewelry store in Israel. One day a nine year old girl walked into the store and said, “I am here to buy a bracelet.” She looked through the glass cases and pointed to a bracelet that was $3,000. The man behind the counter asked her, “You want to buy that bracelet?”

“Yes,” she replied.

“Wow, you have very good taste. Who do you want to buy it for?”

“For my older sister.”

“Oh that is so nice!” the storekeeper replied. “Why do you want to buy your older sister this bracelet?”

“Because I don’t have a mother or father,” the little girl said, “and my older sister takes care of us. So we want to buy her a present, and I’m willing to pay for it.” She pulled out of her pocket a whole bunch of coins that totaled just under eight shekels, a little less than two dollars.

The fellow says, “Wow! That’s exactly what the bracelet costs!” While wrapping up the bracelet he said to the girl, “You write a card to your sister while I wrap the bracelet.” He finished wrapping the bracelet, wiped away his tears, and handed the little girl the bracelet.

A few hours later the older sister entered the store. “I’m terribly embarrassed,” she said. “My sister should not have come here. She shouldn’t have taken it without paying.”

“What are you talking about?” the storekeeper asked.

“What do you mean? This bracelet costs thousands of dollars. My little sister doesn’t have thousands of dollars – she doesn’t even have ten dollars! Obviously she didn’t pay for it.”

“You couldn’t be more wrong,” the storekeeper replied. “She paid me in full. She paid seven shekel, eighty agurot, and a broken heart. I want to tell you something. I am a widower. I lost my wife a number of years ago. People come into my store every single day. They come in and buy expensive pieces of jewelry, and all these people can afford it. When your sister walked in, for the first time in so very long since my wife had died, I once again felt what love means.”

He gave her the bracelet and wished her well.

During the High Holy Days, we come to the Almighty and we want to buy something very expensive. We want to buy life. But we cannot afford it. We don’t have enough money to pay for it. We don’t have the merits. So we come to the Almighty and we empty out our pockets, giving him whatever merits we have plus promises for the future. I’ll pick up the phone and call someone who is lonely, I will learn an extra five minutes of Torah, I will be kind and I will be scrupulous about not speaking lashon hara (gossip) for one hour a day.

The Almighty says, “You don’t know how long it’s been since I’ve felt what love means.” He sees how much we love Him and how much we yearn to improve, and He says, “You know what? You have touched my heart. Here it is, paid in full.”

The story was told over by Rabbi Go’el Elkarif who said he heard it from the person to whom it happened.

*) The "Day of Atonement" is the most important jewish Holy Day, the 10th' day of the period called "Ten Days of Repentance" which begin with the Rosh Hashanah ("Jewish New Year"). These days are called the "High Holy Days".

12

EITHER or NEITHER or BOTH? FORGIVENESS vs ATONEMENT

by Terry in

on (new testament scholar) bart ehrman's blog, the topic of luke's view of the purpose of jesus'.

death has been discussed.. in that discussion, ehrman points out how luke did not set forth the idea of atonement, rather luke set forth the idea of forgiveness.. on the other hand, mark and paul teach atonement.. these two points of view have been "mashed together" into a package deal, apparently, throughout history by theologians.. _________________________.

someone pays a debt owed by another.

TheWonderofYou

myelaine

I like these Psalms you mentioned, here Psalm 32

the next one is not so poetic :

Forgiveness

„If I showed you my flaws
If I couldn't be strong
Tell me honestly would you still love me the same?
If I got locked away
And we lost it all today
Tell me honestly would you still love me the same?“

Locked Away Songtext

Facit: How can we receive this FORGIVENESS

- is it like motherly love or sentimental love?

- are there preconditions or steps towards it (repentance, confession, public declaration, baptism, reversal, public demonstration of repantence, reparation, compensation......) or is it unconditional love)?

- is forgiveness a part of the atonement, the last step of it, or are F & A two parallel processes that run at the same time?

46

Jehovahs Witnesses and the Name , HOW Important. ?

by smiddy in

jehovah`s witnesses place great emphasis on the importance of god`s name as jehovah .so much so that they are often accused by christendom`s religions as substituting jehovah for christ.. the old testament ( hebrew scriptures identify god as the tetragrammaton four hebrew consanants yhwh and not jhvh.

as mistakenly believed by a 13th century spanish monk .. modern scholars including the j.w.`s agree that the more accurate pronunciation of gods name would be more nearer to yahweh than the name jehovah .. so why do j.w.`s insist on the name ?

jehovah ?

TheWonderofYou

myelaine

That is a very deepgoing analysis. I drove by our towns' KH today and I realised they now have installed even two of those big blue white ugly "J W AARGH" signs over the entry what really destroys the impression of the whole building.

39

Horrible Bosses

by John Aquila in

i just heard this a few minutes ago by a jw friend who is still an elder in my old hall.

the kingdom hall i used to attend and my mom still attends was paid off many years ago and serves about 6 congregations.

one of the english congregations has a lot of financially well of members.

TheWonderofYou

Thats definitely a matter and relationship of obedience and domination and not of voluntariness any more.

40

We missed you at the meetings

by punkofnice in

a vomit inducing comment.. i asked why do they have to specify 'meetings'?

they never miss us in tesco or the showcase cinema bar.. in their defence, a friend of mine said: 'that's because the meeting is where they normally would see you.'.

well, if they want to see you they can arrange a meal out or something.

TheWonderofYou

Thanks for the lovely image of a sister awaiting the meetings.

I really always looked hard for a sister in my district but I could not find one who fell in love with me and with whom I could go to the meetings and praying and together holding hands and singing to Jiova. This was one reason why I faded. And my dream did not fulfill.

40

We missed you at the meetings

by punkofnice in

a vomit inducing comment.. i asked why do they have to specify 'meetings'?

they never miss us in tesco or the showcase cinema bar.. in their defence, a friend of mine said: 'that's because the meeting is where they normally would see you.'.

well, if they want to see you they can arrange a meal out or something.

TheWonderofYou

Your effort to come to the "meetings" is what counts.

Its the best proof of appreciation for gods arrangements.

If you lived far away from a kingdom hall and took upon you to walk dozens of miles over snow covered mountain passes in crackly frostiness or through mexican desert near some dangerous geyzers, this would be a good experience to tell on a convention, an example of appreciation. Then you should of course not forget your donation for the world wide work. Perhaps somewhen you can afford building a kingdom hall nearer to your place behind the pass or in the desert

Sitting on your laptop and listening to the morning worship over internet or watching JW broadcast behind the mountanin pass is not the same as coming togehter with sis and bro's. But you could try out at home the paypal function to receive the latest printed edition of ever revised bible at your distant location.