Posts by TheWonderofYou

62

Basic Bible and Religious Vocabulary the Watchtower Never Teaches

by CalebInFloroda in

when i began formal study of religion and biblical analysis it was like peeling off layer after layer of dark matter, sticky and putrid that had stuck over my eyes and ears and mouth.

i learned that under the watchtower one only builds a widening gap between yourself and the world of biblical academia and scholars.

i used to think i knew a lot because i learned to quote a few scholars or lexicons as a witness.

TheWonderofYou

@CalebInFloroda,

thank you for everything. Very interesting.

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

The letter to the Hebrews shows that the act of divine love was the true atonement of the world. Thus ...no legally ransom nor corresponding ransom necessary. Nor for Adam nor for Adam+mankind. Necessary is love. Jesus death is not equal to Adam, but his love brings much more blessings than a legal understanding of scale like justice.

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

TheWonderofYou

The early christians overwhelmed by the happings, the death and resurrection of jesus, looked for answers and they found answers in the scripture and in the tempel sacrifice of the jewish Day of Atonement Jom kippur. The symbols and pictures of the Day of Atonement (asasel, lamb slaugthered....) were connected with the death of Jesus and thus we mean it was a necessary sacrifice.

Jesus was not sacrified or killed in the temple, like the animal. His blood did not rin over the altar in the temple. Thus his sacrifies can be compared with the jewish sacrifies but has a totally other meaning.

The death of Jesus is superior,

1. it is not a sacrificy from man to God, it is a gift from God to men.

2. Not a human effort by jesus to fulfill any sacrifce-laws of a divine law but showing that all human sacrifices are helpless efforts and worthless.

3. Jesus death means that salvation comes from God, not salvation from a man to god dying on the altar as sacrice

4. Since Jesus all temple sacrifices are dispensible and needless because not really helpful, most important was forgiveness and mercy before doing any sacrifice in the temple. God said: I dont need your sacrificies, i want your devotion. A devotion like Jesus, that is what I want from you all and this will save you, not animal sacrifieces.

5. The matter was that Jesus life has much more value on the scale than Adams perfect life. Because jesus was more than Adam, he was that guy who created the universe and adam.

6. So Jesus value of life would weigh much much much more on a scale of justice than Adams sins, even the sins of all mankind together, it would never never never be corresponding ransom- but a second to none ransom, in the ransom picture of course, but it is only a picture!

7. jesus was for the christians the true cosmic day of atonement.

8. In jesus the idea of redemption and substitute got a new sense. As jesus the laymen he became the only true priest of the world.

9. His death as criminal (not sacrifice), happened not inside the liturgic play in the jewish temple, where everbody had its role, no but he died outside the jewish safricie-rituals, inmidst of the world - in the public . This was a sign..... that his death had public meaning ... and he died in front of the true temple, before God himself. (Hebrew 9,11....)

10. His blood and his life was not a objective donation, that could be measured and quantified, it was simple the consequence of and expression of the totality of his devotion and his service.

62

Basic Bible and Religious Vocabulary the Watchtower Never Teaches

by CalebInFloroda in

when i began formal study of religion and biblical analysis it was like peeling off layer after layer of dark matter, sticky and putrid that had stuck over my eyes and ears and mouth.

i learned that under the watchtower one only builds a widening gap between yourself and the world of biblical academia and scholars.

i used to think i knew a lot because i learned to quote a few scholars or lexicons as a witness.

TheWonderofYou

I like this thread,

paradisebeauty: The name "catolic" was used much earlier

wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_term_%22Catholic%22

The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term "Catholic Church" is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."[11][12][13]

5

Do they ever meditate on their hope?

by paradisebeauty in

i just realized that 99% of jw have the same hope as the "unjust".

they want to live forever in a paradise on earth.

but they say this is also what all the "unjust" people who never knew jehovah will get.

TheWonderofYou

So .... the last will be the first, they will even get better positions in the earthly theocracy. .although they never survived harmagedon and the Gtribulation .but under them will be salomon and other old tyranns that remember how to become mighty and rich .. under peaceful conditions they will do even worse things than before... after a short bibel study they will show their real face....and ruin the earthly paradise.and destroy all bible printings houses .....perhaps not...?

45

Rejecting something due to unscriptural or pagan origins.....?

by stuckinarut2 in

so witnesses reject many practices or holidays due to their "unscriptural or pagan" origins.. for example, birthday celebrations, mothers or father's day, christmas etc..... most people in the world will say "but the origin doesn't matter anymore, we follow this custom now because it's a joyful occasion that creates happy times and brings the family together".

it is still firmly rejected.. so, if the wrong origin is so important, and should result in rejecting something, why isn't the same principle applied to the actual jehovah's witness faith itself!?.

after all, the very foundation of the organisation was based on wrong understandings of the bible, far fetched teachings and doctrines, links to false religious backgrounds, pyramidology, false predictions, inaccurate beliefs etc...... using their reasoning, it doesn't matter how good something is now, if the origin was faulty to begin with?

TheWonderofYou

There is a fear that behind everything pagan activity connected with religion could be a satanic conspiracy. Thats the basic belief of JW. No understanding that even in ancient culture the semen of divine truth is present.

Birthday celebration:

Although the pagan celebrated birthdays, doesnt matter...,
if even the star was a satanic star direct from the hell, it doesnt matterr
if even the magi were satans advocates and wanted to whorship a baby!! doesnt matter

Why?

When Jesus was born myriads of angels celebrated his birthday! God and his angels celebrated Jesus' birth sisters and brothers everywhere! They sang a birthday song:

"And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

“Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.” Luke 2 NAS

So the angels celebrated his birthday.

45

Who or What is the Holy Spirit?

by FusionTheism in

tradition within christianity has long been that any time the phrases holy spirit, holy ghost, or spirit of godare used in the bible (especially in the new testament), it always refers to the mysterious third divine person of the trinity, who is fully god, co-equal to the father and son, yet somehow distinct.. i want to present a simplified alternative view: let the context determine the meaning!.

(one thing to keep in mind is that the meaning of the bible words used for spirit basically is unseen force or invisible presence.).

the holy spirit as the mind and personality of god.

TheWonderofYou

After reading a book of Dr. Walter Weber I remembered this thread about "Spirit'". I conclude that "Spirit" is a very appropriate term for the human being in its entire spiritual dimension. This is basis for further thoughs about biblical and religious applications of the term spirit.

Dr. Walter Weber described the role of the human ego, the spiritual being, and its forms of expression in a german book titled "Die Seele heilt den Menschen" (Healing comes from the soul), Germany, 1992 [excerpts in rough translation by me]
The millenium-old awareness that there is a connection between, body, soul and spirt and that human has to be viewed as entity/as a whole. (was the knowledge of old cultures and eastern and native medicine, indian and chinese medicine, e.g. Egypt, Greece see details in annex below)
Mental troubles have its origin in the Ego, "the soul" he explains, and body symptoms are in the end expressions of the Ego. Dr. Weber has experience in treatment of mental health troubles.

About the structure of human beings, Weber wrote, the central level of a person is the "Soul", the "Ego","the Myself", the actual personality, the spiritual being. This central Myself level has its own world of sensation and feelings, a world of thoughts and world of perception/idea summarized as "mental level".
This mental area is not subordinated, it stands on the highest position of all areas, compared with the other qualities of the My-self sector, the world of language, actions and actions that adopted shape = materia = body including mental-organic processes.

He structures the mental level as follows:

notions - thoughts
ideas
sensation
intention
objectives
decision
programs, routine

In case of mental troubles superordinate notions are deployed in therapy. E.g. for the
1) Myself-Level: In case of a trouble in the Myself-zone the following superordinate notions can be helpful:Myself-disturbance, ego-dysfunction: " I have self-confidence" - "i stick to myself" - " I decide about my thinking, action, speaking and doing"Egotism: "I respect others" - " I accept that others are respronsible for themself"
2) for the Mental level: On the level of ideas and notions trouble can be existent too. If you cant imagine things and processes you can help yourself with the following superior notion:"I determine my ideas" - " I get clear imagination before I speak or act"
3) For the other levels, language, action and posessions it is necessary to recognize and dissolve blockings by means of unconscious programs:

Language. " i can speak with everyone freely about everything and openly"

Action: "I only execute things, that i have imagined clear to myself and about which i have decided explicit"

Posessions: " I can posess things, but I dont have to posess them".

He describes the task of the therapeut as checking the mental levels and finding out if the other levels of expressions of the Ego are without troubles. He mentions frequent mental problems with suitable notions are:

Being Alone: "I live in harmony with myself and other people and easily establish good contact with them.

No help: " I can accept help" - I can help without contraint and false intention"

Time: " I have enough time"Fear: "I have confidence in myself, my fellow men and my life".

My interpretation in reference to the term Spirit:Perhaps you remember the wildhorse "Spirit" from the film, and you can imagine its courage and impulse for freedom because it was a wildhorse. Likewise i find it fine to say that the spirit is what constitutes the entire spirtual dimension of an animal and a human being (="spiritual being" perhaps?) Recognizable are several qualities of our spiritual dimension. The expressions of our ego zone, mental zone and even bodily qualities like strength, beauty, courage, charisma are called our spirituality. (The level of energy in these expressions is not my task)

Does spirit exist: Yes, we can see the expression of the spirit and thus we know many about a human being, a spiritual being. The existence is not quantifyable but the qualities can be recognized and thus we can trust that we see not a ghost but a spiritual being with soul, heart and emotions.

The wonder of you would in the end be....your spirit. ;-)
... again i discovered something meaninful for myself, didnt I and you alread knew it?

.....

Annex ancient cultures:

In greece it was frownd upon to to fiddle around at at the symptoms, the question about the life sircumstances of was a matter of course. This was the starting point of the treatment, while medicine and drugs were applied supportively.

In Egypt were 3 groups of healers: Priests, doctors and a group that could be called today alternativ medicine. During the first 3 days of an disease it was forbidden under captial punishment to approach to the patient. During these days the patient was treated only by the priest. He tried to find out, what was the reason for the disharmony of a person with itself, his surrounding or the cosmic laws.

7

I just realized something that I didn't realize before

by Island Man in

jws teach that only the anointed should partake of the emblems at the memorial because they are in the new covenant but the rest of jws are not.. well, if we follow that logic, shouldn't they also teach that only the anointed should pray in jesus' name?

they teach that jesus is the mediator between jehovah and the anointed only and that the "other sheep" are going to be beneficiaries of the new covenant but are not party to it.

the exact same reasoning applies to the memorial - the anointed are in the covenant but the "other sheep" are not.

TheWonderofYou

I ve nearly forgotten it: For what reason is Jesus the "mediator" for only a small group of anointed ones? What is the "mediating, conciliating" act or activity at all for these small group in contrary to all other little sheep? Is it merely the theoretical applying of the benetifts of his ransom sacrifice or something really comprehensible?

19

As a Work of Literature The Bible is Just Dreadful

by cofty in

of course it's easy to criticise the bible for all manner of serious flaws, but it fails on a more basic level.. it is just a terrible piece of literature.. this piece on "southern skeptic" is well worth a read.. god is a terrible writer....

TheWonderofYou

CalebinFloroda:

Read about that too, very good commented, many formulas or texts that look to be "orginally" biblical were used
before in service and sayings.

The Revelation of John e.g. was not intended to bo read personally at home but was intended to be read in service as upbuilding hope.

I remember that I read that somewhere in the 2 Gonzales' Explaination of Johns Revelation: Do you know it?

https://books.google.at/books?id=J-NnXNrJD8EC&printsec=frontcover&dq=justo+gonzales+revelation+john&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAGoVChMIusKy65vixgIVBbkUCh0XJg_E#v=onepage&q=justo%20gonzales%20revelation%20john&f=false

19

As a Work of Literature The Bible is Just Dreadful

by cofty in

of course it's easy to criticise the bible for all manner of serious flaws, but it fails on a more basic level.. it is just a terrible piece of literature.. this piece on "southern skeptic" is well worth a read.. god is a terrible writer....

TheWonderofYou

The early christians began to fabulate like the apocalytic jewish prophets, perhaps they did it even better?

There were streams withing the church that were chiliastic, John wrote the apocalypse, revelation,..especially in times of persecution people liked those stories.

But a end time hystery like in a cult was not the church's general attitude, i think.

I thinke one reason that the church did not put so strong meaning to the bible reading for all christians was, that the bible would after the end of the antique time in the western world not be understood easily at all anymore.

Later the protestant reformation and some single wolfes rediscovered the bible and got overexegerated of the apocalpytic pictures and thought to understand it literally is super. then came the mormons, the adventists and the messianic jews and all are so fascintated of the literal meanings and second fulfilmments. OMG.