Hallucinogens have always been a key element of religion. Especially shamanism. Stories of shamans divining the future though visions and psychedelic imagery and casting bones or stones and conjuring animals like flies, snakes and frogs were a staple of ancient near East. Usually these are accompanied with burning "incense" and holy oils. Think about it.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
-
33
Sorcery = Pharmakeia
by KerryKing inrev18:23 '....you deceived the nations with your sorceries'.. the interlinear for sorceries reads pharmakeia.. bible hub has some interesting definitions, i'll try to share screenshots below.
the gist of it is that sorcery involves drugs/medicines/poisons, with or without spells, sorcery is not the same as witchcraft or divination, or white/black magic.
i have long wondered about the connection between the medical/pharmaceutical industry's symbol of the serpent wrapped around a pole/stake, and the use of the word pharmaceuticals/pharmacy.. considering the common use of fluoride in public drinking water, nsaids with side effects such as depression, brain fog, dizziness, and opioids, mrna gene therapy, vaccines and so on, i wonder am i going mad, are these all coincidences??
-
-
-
152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
-
-
peacefulpete
Well, ok,. The Bayesian theorem is an interesting approach, it actually makes a great deal of sense to apply it in a case like this when we have only 'balance of evidence' to guide us. Years ago I illustrated the illogic of simply assuming historicity when reading an internally plausible narrative. Goldilocks and the three bears (an English tale). It could be argued that the story has a historical 'core' because about 1000 years ago there were bears in the English countryside, bears have been observed eating porridge and little precocious girls can be destructive. No one does however, because the fantastic elements negate any meaningful argument for historicity. Bayesian theorem takes the likelihood of each element into consideration. The likelihood of bears in the countryside was at one time good (100%), the likelihood that they could talk is 0. Times the two and you have the odds of the story being historical in any meaningful way. In the case of the Jesus stories Carrier, unlike most scholars, takes the story at face value and assesses the likelihood of historicity. Most scholars, like Goodacre, begin with the assumption that the story is an embellishment of an ordinary man. I agree with Carrier that this is a mistake. If we are being asked the odds for the one-time existence of a man who was killed for religious disruption, the odds would pretty darn good. That is what is dominating scholarship.
Additionally, the lack of biographical elements in Paul and other early writings (e.g. Hebrews) strongly suggest those to be secondary. And as I said, far too often what is pinned as historical elements are actually OT allusions. I argued with Tim Callahan over diner a dozen years ago or so about this. He saw the 'Nazareth' element as a evidence of historicity because he deemed it an embarrassment that no writer would include unless forced to. That is ignoring the way the author used the "Nazareth' element, he used it because he thought it was from the OT. Thats's another evidence that these story details are secondary, (As it happens, Nazareth probably didn't exist as a village yet and the likely word the writers had heard from tradition was Nazarene).
BTW, Carrier does rely to Goodacre: Mark Goodacre on the Historicity of Jesus's Execution • Richard Carrier Blogs
-
152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
-
-
peacefulpete
You, and many others, are reading into the text. The point of the author's statement is to repeat the mantra that a ruler would be from the ancient line of Ephratahites from Bethlehem. It is that simple. His 'goings forth' ancestry/origins went back to the 'days of old'.
It would make no sense to a 5th century writer to say the Ruler would be from the Ephratahite's lineage and then say he was from long long before them. Grammatically it only flows with a straightforward reading without Christian coloring. I haven't seen any examples of pre-Christians interpreting the passage that way, but it is possible as we have shown there were many novel readings of the OT regarding 'agency' of God in the 2nd temple period.
This is a great example of chicken of egg questions regarding evolving theology. Did an aberrant interpretation/reading lead to a new doctrine or was the doctrine formulated through other influences and then proof texts sought?
-
15
U turn in vac mandate
by ElderBerry inso now they don’t want defib machines in khalls because it shines a light on the increasing blood clots from the shots that they said were safe.
https://youtu.be/yvvyiuqv3nm.
-
-
-
152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
-
-
peacefulpete
Yes, the writer of Matt used the passage. He quote mined the OT to add 'fleshing out' details to Mark. Even then he does not however suggest the passage is referring to a prehuman eternal origin. He says the King/Ruler would go forth from the ancient clan of Ephrathah of Bethlehem of 'days of old'.
-
152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
-
-
peacefulpete
This is misdirection in the extreme. The operative word in Micah 5:2 is "origin." Jesus is indeed ancient, though the definition of olam as "eternity" is flawed. His age is indeed beyond human comprehension, but the reference is still to an origin, a point in time, a time when he went forth....
Actually you are equally disregarding the intent of the author. As I briefly said the context says simply that the promised King would be from an ancient clan of Ephrathah, the origins of which were "from of old, from ancient times". There is nothing about a prehuman spirit implied.
-
152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
-
-
peacefulpete
Mythicism is rejected by scholars as being almost on a par with flat-earth theories.
LOL, ironically the 'historicist' position could be regarded the 'flat earth theory' in light of the fresh scholarship on Christian origins. The 'Mythicist' label is deliberately used pejoratively by some who have not even familiarized themselves with the best arguments. Much like you did.
In short, the ingredients were all there, the political timing was right and the earliest writings we have reveal an otherwise bizarre absence of historical markers. I'd not expect you to change your views on a couple posts, give serious consideration to an introduction to the evidence in :On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt: Carrier, Richard: 0884967420701: Amazon.com: Books
-
15
U turn in vac mandate
by ElderBerry inso now they don’t want defib machines in khalls because it shines a light on the increasing blood clots from the shots that they said were safe.
https://youtu.be/yvvyiuqv3nm.
-
-
peacefulpete
Surely the rise of AI and the availability of AEDs are not a coincidence! These so-called life-saving devices are in fact secret death instruments.
-
9
Why did God stop intervening in human affairs and deliverance of his people?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe bible is full of stories of god intervening on behalf of those that had trust and faith in him.
he rescues his people from various battles, trials and challenges from their enemies.
the rescued individuals or communities are quick to offer praise and gratitude to god for his mighty acts on their behalf.. the story of the israelites’ exodus from egypt and the parting of the red sea is a prime example of god’s powerful deliverance in the bible.
-
-
peacefulpete
Sometimes we forget that when the first readers of these stories read them, they asked the same question. -
152
Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?
by slimboyfat ini would suggest:.
the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.
the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.
-
-
peacefulpete
Days ago, slimboy screenshot an excerpt from a book discussing the evolution of the messiah concept. That book and many others have demonstrated, very convincingly, that among the diverse sects of Hellenized Judaism a matrix of pre-Christian concepts gelled into Christianity. The 'Two Powers' theology, "The Great Angel", Holy Spirit, Wisdom, Shekhinah, Light, Logos and Son of God, Son of Man, concepts all occur or were understood as embodied emanations of God during second temple Judaism. Substitutes for God as it were. When the first Christians 'perceived' from these texts and 'visions' an invisible drama of the Christ descending from the highest regions of heaven and being hung on a tree by wicked spirits, their seemingly foreign ideas were actually a natural extension of a sophisticated Jewish ideation of God and Messianism. Given the diversity of Judaism and Hellenism that inspired Christianity, it would seem unrealistic to insist upon a singular picture of 'original' Christianity. In this model of Christian origins, we begin with broad strokes of belief in divine salvation through an invisible emissary of God.
As I've expressed before, it appears certain second/third generation Christians adapted Old testament narratives to dramatize the invisible. They freely drew from the OT, hundreds of story and prophetic elements to 'flesh out' what was understood as spirit. I suspect that the original form of Mark was a didactic play for recruitment or instruction. Christ was given a name, Emmanuel and Joshuah, his father was Joseph, the towns he lived in were Bethlehem and Nazareth, he walked the exact routes of OT figures, he sat at the same well, he performed the OT miracles, all drawn from the OT and related writings. The popularity of this dramatization unfortunately led to literalization. Christianity was transformed via euhemerism. What was once an esoteric faith in the divine formed through visionary interpretation was overlain with a cult of a literary person killed by Romans. The Church Fathers and others created a hybrid of the two. They were intellectually attracted to the higher Christology of the original but leaned on the literalizations as a defense. The same continues today.
Is it any wonder debates about the nature of this Christ have continued for 2000 years? The modern selection of texts used for these debates were chosen by Church Fathers and later leaders to permit both a fully divine Christ and a fully human Joshua.