Posts by peacefulpete

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

I'm afraid I still didn't bring some of this home. IF we understand a protoGospel (UrMark?) to have been produced by a second/third generation Christian to flesh out and expound upon what previous Christians had left unsaid, in the same spirit of the birth narratives and infancy Gospels. Paul's silence (apart from a few interpolations) regarding any extended earthly stay and teaching of Christ, left a void that was filled by this new narration compiled almost entirely from OT typology and Homeric literature, set in the recent past under Romans. In many ways this resembles the Essenic methods of exegesis (I will not call it Midrash). Later recensions of this story continued to fill in the voids using the OT analogy and add a flavor of historicity (Luke's use of Josephus e.g.).

Mind you there was no one direction for these influences, for a famous example, what one writer felt was anti-Docetic (brothers) another later Catholic objected to.

In sum, there is no reason to object to the abundantly evident conclusion that Judas Iscariot is a literary creation. He plays a role entirely consistent with the method and objective of the writer, a method and objective continued by later redactors of the story.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

I realize the impression I left P.S. was one of obfuscation. And in her impression was I was ignoring her retort. So, though she has left the conversation, I wish to respond to few of her comments.

The mythology of the gospels aside, the rabbi known as Jesus of Nazareth was destined to crucifixion, no matter what as the priesthood of the time had no sympathy for messianic pretenders that publically embrassed them while creating powerful movements consisting of sympathic followers. Rome likewise did not appreciate anyone calling themselves "king"....

This argument pretty much ignores the larger thesis, the questionable historicity of Jesus and events described as occurring to him. The earliest evidence suggests that the "rulers" described as crucifying Jesus were thought of, not as Romans, but cosmic, spirit rulers who in fact do not recognize the Christ at all. And who if they had would not have unwittingly done God's will. Paul, even in the form we have today, retains this idea. The ascension of Isaiah too describes the efforts to disguise the Christ and the duping of these spirit rulers. If anyone wishes this can be discussed further, but for now, this is why I do not find the objection raised by P.S. persuasive.

Another character, like Judas Iscariot, handing him over as a betrayer is an invention? Unlikely. Judas is actually just the name "Jude," which was slightly changed so as not to confuse it with the name of the brother of Jesus who is also named Jude. (John 14:22) There is also the prophet named Judas Barsabbas mentioned in Acts 15:22-33.

Again here we have an argument from the standpoint of historicity as well as not appreciating the layered nature of these traditions. The addition of Jesus' "brothers" has been discussed at length elsewhere, and in short may have been a part of a larger effort to "disprove" the popular docetic arguments of the day. It created a family for Jesus and therefore he was not merely an appearance of a man. Tertullian argues in such a way, he denies the perpetual virginity of Mary for this reason. Considering that Docetic Christianity posed a threat to the burgeoning orthodoxy, it not surprising that we find elements included in the text that would not have been there earlier when the Docetics formulated their Christology. The confusing mess of Jameses illustrates the evolving nature of these traditions. James the Less, James the Greater, James the Just, James "brother of the Lord" (Galatians, as opposed to Apostle with whom tradition later conflates), James the son of Joseph but not Mary (Gospel of James) James the brother of the high priest Jesus of Josephus etc. It is my view that this confusion/conflation of Jameses combined with the Pauline spiritual usage of the words "brother/s of the Lord" enabled this anti-docetic development. Suddenly Jesus of Nazareth has brothers and sisters. It is the same with Jude/Judas/Judah. Here is a character in some texts an Apostle in others a brother, tradition often conflates the two. The names of the Apostles, likely props to equate the new Israel with the 12 tribes, are inconsistent and suggestive of alternate traditions. (2 James, 2 Johns, 2 Judases created by taking the Gospels together) IOW, there weren't 2 Judases in the original list.

Sorry about the duplication, I was distracted and ran out of time.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

I realize the impression I left P.S. was one of obfuscation. And in her impression was I was ignoring her retort. So, though she has left the conversation, I wish to respond to few of her comments.

The mythology of the gospels aside, the rabbi known as Jesus of Nazareth was destined to crucifixion, no matter what as the priesthood of the time had no sympathy for messianic pretenders that publically embrassed them while creating powerful movements consisting of sympathic followers. Rome likewise did not appreciate anyone calling themselves "king"....

This argument pretty much ignores the larger thesis, the questionable historicity of Jesus and events described as occurring to him. The earliest evidence suggests that the "rulers" described as crucifying Jesus were thought of, not as Romans, but cosmic, spirit rulers who in fact do not recognize the Christ at all. And who if they had would not have unwittingly done God's will. Paul, even in the form we have today, retains this idea. The ascension of Isaiah too describes the efforts to disguise the Christ and the duping of these spirit rulers. If anyone wishes this can be discussed further, but for now, this is why I do not find the objection raised by P.S. persuasive.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

On top of all that, the tribes of Judah and Issachar are adjacent to each other (i.e. Iudas Issakhar in LXX) in Deuteronomy 27:12, and the following curse occurs a few verses later: "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person" (v. 25).

Perhaps the Number 7 passage that deals with the inaugural sacrifices at the Temple are relevant as well. Notice the first two to bring sacrifices and gifts to the alter were tribes of Judah and Issachar.

10 And the rulers brought for the dedication of the altar, in the day in which he anointed it, and the rulers brought their gifts before the altar.
11 And the Lord said to Moses, One chief each day, they shall offer their gifts a chief each day for the dedication of the altar.
12 And he that offered his gift on the first day, was Naasson the son of Aminadab, prince of the tribe of Judah (Judas)....And he brought his gift, one silver charger of a hundred and thirty shekels was its weight, one silver bowl, of seventy shekels according to the holy shekel; both full of fine flour kneaded with oil for a meat-offering....15 One calf of the herd, one ram, one he-lamb of a year old for a whole-burnt-offering;

16 and one kid of the goats for a sin-offering..18 On the second day Nathanael son of Sogar, the prince of the tribe of Issachar, brought .
19 And he brought his gift, one silver charger, its weight a hundred and thirty shekels, one silver bowl of seventy shekels according to the holy shekel; both full of fine flour kneaded with oil for a meat-offering.

The close proximity to the words "silver" and 'thirty shekels might have contributed to this usage.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

Wow. Sorry to hear of your experience and sorry to have triggered some deep feelings. I have come to a better understanding of the strict definition of words like midrash for Jewish readers. The quotations/citations I provided were to illustrate the use of the word in a larger context. Perhaps an alternative terminology would be more sensitive. All the best to you.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

I think he was directing that at me but by extension Leolaia. For that matter Crossan, Thompson, Allison, or any other of the many scholars that recognize the intertextual character of the Gospels. Like I said, it's got me baffled.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

Sorry careful I was directing that to P.S.(pioneer schmioneer) His/their comments disappointed me. I'm not sure what to think. The person who posted that last comment and the one who posted in earlier threads seem like two different people. I am after all presenting nothing more than what they accepted was true of the OT, was continued in the Gospels,

Earlier he/they posted a comment much like mine in thought. :

Yet the Bible writers used different genres to preserve and pass on their truths. They often employed motifs familiar to the ancient reader. This meant borrowing from popular types and formats of ancient storytelling.....Like the Moses story, where as a babe, he is preserved from pharaoh by being placed in a reed basket and sent down the Nile only to be discovered by Pharaoh's daughter. This is likely not history but a borrowed mythological motif....

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

Regarding Leolaia, She has a rare gift, I lost contact quite a few years ago. She was teaching language at Stanford at the time. She is no longer there. All the best to her wherever she is.

P.S. You have no idea how disappointed your comments have made me. I'm hoping you may be able to take a step back and get excited again about learning new ideas and approaches or assisting us to do the same. We've had a number of well-schooled professionals on this forum willing to contribute to discussions, using their expertise to kindly steer those of us with less experience. Narkissos for example was/is a valued Greek translator as well as versed in the schools of philosophy. He tolerated amateurs such as myself. My 25 year passion for research began with a desire to understand the book I had imagined myself an expert. Now my puzzle solving nature craves resolution to the origin and earliest stages of Christianity. I've read literally hundreds of respected works on this and related topics. I've a pretty comprehensive view of the larger issues and controversies. I love learning, if you care to share something with me on this topic I'll always welcome it.

56

Today Dr. Peter McCullough said 'conspiracy theory' (which is in the April 2024 Watchtower) is a propaganda term! 😲

by was a new boy in

"misinformation, disinformation, science, this antiscience, uh conspiracy theory, these are propaganda terms.".

'don't use them' he says.

@ 19:33. https://youtu.be/miauulndllq?t=1173.

peacefulpete

Shortly after this we were disfellowshipped. You can say what you like but although theoretically you are allowed free speech in the organisation you are not.

I had to laugh at that one. Who exactly says "You are allowed Free speech in the organization"? That's news to me!

Will Watchtower ever release all $ documentation for their not being neutral on Covid-19 Vaccines?

The approved use of vaccines is not a political issue, despite how it has been framed by certain fringe elements. It is a medical/scientific matter. As such the WT is not under any obligation to be neutral anymore than on gravity, round earth or germ theory of disease.

Now, the issue of political neutrality is an ethical quagmire worth discussing, but to link political neutrality to use of vaccines just reflects the misguided political assumptions of the person not vaccines.

56

Today Dr. Peter McCullough said 'conspiracy theory' (which is in the April 2024 Watchtower) is a propaganda term! 😲

by was a new boy in

"misinformation, disinformation, science, this antiscience, uh conspiracy theory, these are propaganda terms.".

'don't use them' he says.

@ 19:33. https://youtu.be/miauulndllq?t=1173.

peacefulpete

So... it' a baseless conspiracy theory to suggest that baseless conspiracy theories exist and are dangerous?