The craziest part of it all is the lack of perspective. Anyone familiar with history can tell you these days are the most free, productive and indulgent of human history. It's as if, the less people have to complain about the more they do. For much of the world, our concerns revolve around getting too fat or living too long and requiring large retirement savings. As far as 'morality' the Bible is filled with stories of incest, prostitution and war crimes...and that's the good guys.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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Curious? How many members of this group feel we are living in the "End Times"?
by Balaamsass2 ini like to take a peek at the kids over on reddit every week or so.. this thread caught my eye:" curious….
do any ex jw or pimo, still believe the world is ending.
i see people who have never been witnesses think that the world will end soon and they say things like “jesus is coming soon”….
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The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat inrowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?
as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.
that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
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peacefulpete
Disagreements over minor or seemingly trivial points can become disproportionately intense because the issues are often close to people's identities, values, or self assessment of their intelligence, making them more sensitive and less willing to compromise. This is supported by reflections on how disagreements can escalate even when the factual differences are small, as people become more entrenched and emotionally invested.
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Be Moneychangers
by peacefulpete inthere were literally hundreds of 'sayings' attributed to jesus outside the 4 gospel tradition.
many of these sayings had narrow sectarian acceptance while one 'saying' especially had near universal appeal.. "be ye skillful moneychangers.".
this is the most commonly quoted of all traditional sayings.
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peacefulpete
Philo of Alexandria was a first century Jewish philosopher/theologian. His work in many ways presaged Christian thought, especially in his Logos conception. His words above might have been what the earliest Christian Fathers attributed to a saying of Jesus.
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Be Moneychangers
by peacefulpete inthere were literally hundreds of 'sayings' attributed to jesus outside the 4 gospel tradition.
many of these sayings had narrow sectarian acceptance while one 'saying' especially had near universal appeal.. "be ye skillful moneychangers.".
this is the most commonly quoted of all traditional sayings.
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peacefulpete
There were literally hundreds of 'sayings' attributed to Jesus outside the 4 Gospel tradition. Many of these sayings had narrow sectarian acceptance while one 'saying' especially had near universal appeal.
"Be ye skillful Moneychangers."
This is the most commonly quoted of all traditional sayings. Researchers have found around 70 examples of this saying in extant writings.
There are, as to be expected, variations of this saying. The above wording is from Clement of Alexandria. Here is the larger quote:
"Rightly, therefore, the Scripture in its desire to make us such dialecticians, exhorts us: "Be ye skilful moneychangers," rejecting some things, but retaining what is good". He attributes the quote as from Peter who is quoting Jesus. "If any of you wants to be saved, be competent money-changers". (Clem. Alex., Stroniata)
What follows is drawn from research from sources cited below:
In addition to the sheer number of citations collected by Resch, the references to the saying are spread out across hundreds of years and many distinctive cultural locales. Nevertheless, although the saying performs slightly varying functions in these specific instances, it is always utilized for decidedly similar purposes--in discussions of legitimate authority, accurate discernment, and provenance. The money-changer saying, which may even have been part of an early Christian ordination ritual, provides a metaphor--that is, a guiding model--for determining who is the true successor of Christ and the apostles, the rightfully sanctioned interpreter of Scripture, and the defender against heresy....
In our earliest sources, we find the money-changer saying used in the literature of very different groups of "Christians" The saying was deployed not only in late-second- and third-century C.E. settings to legitimize the ability of bishops who would later be considered "orthodox" (e.g., Clement of Alexandria) to make authoritative religious judgments (R 1, 41-43; see also its use in the Didascalia 2.36 and Apostolic Constitutions [R 21, 52]) but also in texts such as the Coptic Askew Codex, commonly titled Pistis Sophia 134 (R 15a), where Mary Magdalene is directed by Jesus to be an "approved money changer" Epiphanius (Pan. 44.2.7-8 [R 23]) explicitly places the saying in the mouth of Appelles, a disciple of Marcion, who cited it in reference to the ability to judge which passages of Scripture were derived from the "higher God" and which were from the flawed demiurge responsible for the creation of the world. (32) Indicative of its wide acceptance as an undisputed saying of "the Lord" is its use by theological opponents such as Jerome (R 30, 60-62) and Origen (R 2, 3, 27-29, 44-51), who cite it (as do more than a dozen other church fathers) without raising any suspicions about heretical origins. (33) The money changer saying is not surprisingly introduced into discussions of whether knowledge garnered from noncanonical (R 12a) and even pagan philosophical sources (R 32) was "true." Resch's list, which for the most part contains citations from documents composed by fourth- and fifth-century C.E. Christian leaders and scholars generally considered orthodox--for example, Cyril of Jerusalem (R 5), Cyril of Alexandria (R 10, 34-36), Basil the Great (R 6-8), John Chrysostom (R 13, 31, 59), and John Cassian (R 24-25, 63-64)--also includes passages derived from eighth(R 12a, 67), ninth- (R 68), and even fourteenth-century C.E. (R 12b, 16) sources. The money-changer saying is, moreover, encountered in the writings of authors living in widely varying geographical and cultural locations, from Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch to Constantinople and Milan.....
....in early Christian literature the money-changer saying is almost exclusively introduced into discussions concerning authentic "Christianity," on critical issues as important as apostolic succession, canon, and the rooting out of heresy. The saying, for example, is referred to, though not cited by Resch, in the context of events surrounding the ordination of Zacchaeus in the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies. In Hom. 3.60-61, the candidate for the appointment as Peter's successor--as in the case of Jesus' disciple Mary Magdalene in Pistis Sophia 134 (R 23)--must be able and willing to determine Jesus' words "as silver and money are proved among the money changers." Even more startling, in another reference to approved money changers not listed by Resch, Origen argues that it is the true church's "approved money changers" who chose which of the many proliferating gospels and traditions linked to Jesus were deemed legitimate (Hom. on Luke 1.1-4). "Approved money changers" are thereby explicitly linked with the highest authorized leaders of the earliest Christian churches responsible for determining which sayings of and teachings concerning Jesus were authentic. The money-changer agraphon, though it is not a part of the Gospels that would become part of the canon, represents symbolically the judgment of those who determined what was in or out! In the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies 2.51 (R 18), the saying is likewise called upon when judging which sayings from the Jewish Scriptures are true and which are counterfeit. In the proto-orthodox argumentation of both Clement of Alexandria and Origen, the interpretation of Scripture and doctrine is the backdrop for the entrance of the saying.
The importance of this agraphon does not depend only on the number of its appearances, but also on its content, which proved extremely flexible and thus useful in the first centuries when developing Christian communities underwent a period of rapid and significant change and consolidation, mainly brought about through a sharp and not uncontroversial categorization of what was canonical and what apocryphal, what was orthodox and what heretic, what was authoritative and inspired and what was poisonous and evil.
https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5071&context=ocj
(Alfred Resch, Agrapha: Ausserkanonische Evangelien-Fragjnente in moglichster Vollstdndigkeit zusammengestellt und quellenkritisch untersucht(1906))
As mentioned, this saying, used to justify the various and often contradictory religious leaders' determinations of authenticity and canon, is rather ironically, not found in any known Gospel material. The likely source:
Philo Special Laws IV (77) ....and punishment is due to the unrighteous just as honors should be confirmed to the just, so that no wicked man who is in difficulties, and who conceals the truth, ought to escape punishment through the pity excited by his poverty, since he has done what deserves not pity (how should it?) but great anger. And let the man who undertakes the duty of a judge, like a skillful money-changer, divide and distinguish between the natures of things, in order that confusion may not be caused by the mixing together of what is good with what is spurious.
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Ebion
by peacefulpete inearly christianity was every bit, if not more, diverse than christianity today.
one of the very early sects was named the ebionites.
we have unfortunately nothing left of their own writings apart from a few quotes from what epiphanius believed was their recension of matthew.
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peacefulpete
To illustrate the problem of accepting early Christian writers as historically sound, notice that Irenaeus retells a story/legend about Cerinthus:
There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within.
Against Heresies, 3.3.4
It is pretty obvious that the story posted earlier featuring the imaginary Ebion was a retelling of this legend about Cerinthus.
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Jacob and the Rock'n Rollers
by peacefulpete insomehow i had never noticed a detail in the jacob at the well story.
gen 29 (lxx).
1 and jacob started and went to the land of the east to laban, the son of bathuel the syrian, and the brother of rebecca, mother of jacob and esau.2 and he looks, and behold!
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peacefulpete
Somehow I had never noticed a detail in the Jacob at the well story.
Gen 29 (LXX)
1 And Jacob started and went to the land of the east to Laban, the son of Bathuel the Syrian, and the brother of Rebecca, mother of Jacob and Esau.
2 And he looks, and behold! a well in the plain; and there were there three flocks of sheep resting at it, for out of that well they watered the flocks, but there was a great stone (megas lithos) at the mouth of the well.
3 And there were all the flocks gathered, and they used to roll away the stone from the mouth of the well, and water the flocks, and set the stone again in its place on the mouth of the well.
4 And Jacob said to them, Brethren, whence are ye? and they said, We are of Charrhan.
5 And he said to them, Know ye Laban, the son of Nachor? and they said, We do know .
6 And he said to them, Is he well? And they said, He is well. And behold Rachel his daughter came with the sheep.
7 And Jacob said, it is yet high day, it is not yet time that the flocks be gathered together; water ye the flocks, and depart and feed them.
8 And they said, We shall not be able, until all the shepherds be gathered together, and they shall roll away the stone from the mouth of the well, then we will water the flocks.
9 While he was yet speaking to them, behold, Rachel the daughter of Laban came with her father's sheep, for she fed the sheep of her father.
10 And it came to pass when Jacob saw Rachel the daughter of Laban, his mother's brother, and the sheep of Laban, his mother's brother, that Jacob came and rolled away the stone from the mouth of the well, and watered the sheep of Laban, his mother's brother.I never noticed this little heroic tale before. Here Jacob upon seeing Rachel is able to perform a superhuman feat of rolling away a great stone that otherwise took many ordinary men to move.Stones (as interpreted at least) are loaded with symbolism in the Bible. Ancient Sages and Rabbis often thought of these individual stories of stones collectively. In a sense they all meant something identifying Israel(Jacob) as a people with a shared experience. The very same stone was believed to have literarily moved from story to story. The stone even eventually became the foundation of the Temple.Water likewise is theologically loaded. The Torah (Law) was thought to be symbolized by the water from the well Jacob opened by rolling away the great stone.With stones having rich symbolism, it is not surprising the Gospel plays on that as well. Jesus is famously called 'the living stone' and the foundational 'cornerstone of God's Temple' aka 'the rock that followed them'. Even in the resurrection story (Mark 16:3,4) the 'great stone' (megas lithos) is rolled away from the tomb to release Jesus' waters of life. When the women arrive at the tomb the stone had been rolled away and Jesus gone.Again, I find a masterful reuse of OT imagery and symbolism in the Gospel stories.The revisor known as Matt added yet another 'great earthquake' (he liked earthquakes) to the scene and for some reason felt the need to say an 'angel of the Lord had rolled away the stone'. I suspect he was playing off the role angels were said to play in the giving of the Torah but then again he might have just felt something was missing from Mark's bare-bones narrative. I wonder though if he missed the Marcan parallelism, that superhuman Jesus, like his typological progenitor Jacob, rolled the stone (himself) away himself. -
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"JEHOVAH'S" witnesses: How could WE get the name so wrong????
by BoogerMan inthe "slave's" understanding of the scriptures must be correct, so here's a clarification: ©.
(matthew 10:18) ....before governors and kings for jehovah's sake, for a witness..... (mark 13:9) ...be put on the stand......for jehovah's sake, for a witness to them.
(luke 24:47, 48) .
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peacefulpete
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The Big Secret
by finishedmystery inwhen the gb brought a formal end to all the type/antitypes in so many ways it could be said that they brought the religion to an end.
the other sheep/anointed teaching that leads to a two class religion was originally based on two antitypes--the jehu/jehonadab relationship and something about the cities of refuge.
in that 2014 annual meeting talk david splane even specifically stated that the cities of refuge has no antitype.
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peacefulpete
I think the fact that certain present GB members are not comfortable with certain specific predictions using the type/antitype model must be put in perspective. They have not abandoned the method in reality and are free to revisit anything said that leads you to believe they did. In the very article (May 2024) that backed away from some specific predictions, they still retained the type/antitype method of interpretation throughout.
The doctrinal changes reflect the views of someone/s dominant in the group, not some new paradigm of interpretation.
Christianity is at its core a typological reinterpretation of the OT. There is no Christianity without imagined 'parallels' and prophetic 'dual applications'.
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Trump Tariffs started today, Some Countries Caved in early morning.
by liam inusa politicians in charge of the economy for the past 50 years were too stupid to understand how the economy works.
this just proves my theory, that an education on the top tier universities just sucks and means nothing in the real world, unless its in the stem education.
for 50 years usa had zero tariffs on other countries.
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peacefulpete
The only country that has spilt it's blood for America & would do so again is Britain..
I'm glad there is some goodwill for America left.
I almost laughed out loud, he paused most of the tariffs again....chaos
I guess enough leaders were 'kissing my ass"........
Maybe you Brits have more experience with this sort of thing....King George III.....or maybe Lear?