Posts by peacefulpete

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

peacefulpete

The point of the above, is the "words of Jesus" were not fixed. They were freely adapted and expanded.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

Matt 16: "In reply he said to them: “When evening falls, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is fire-red,’ and in the morning, ‘It will be wintry, rainy weather today, for the sky is fire-red but gloomy.’

Here this author has taken his source "Mark' and followed the immediate setting closely, the response is to a test from Pharisees.

Luke 12: 54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.

56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Here this author has removed the setting and relocated the conversation as one of a series. Specifically, he is said to be addressing the 'crowd'. Interestingly the author also offers a different weather pattern. It has been suggested this might be because that red/morning meaning rain does not apply to all regions and the author made his own weather prediction. Also interesting is that the manuscripts of Matt are split on this. Many translations reflect this with brackets. The variant form follows Mark in having no weather commentary at all.

he answered by saying to them, '•An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign"

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

peacefulpete

Jeffro... The last section of book of Daniel was reinterpreted as referring to Rome prior to Christian usage. The surprising turns of history that saw the resolution of the Antiochene crisis but not the hoped for end of troubles, kept the work alive and open to reinterpretation. It may be the explanation for the insertion of an additional 70 years into 9:26,27 in the Old Greek translation. Even as that passed, fans of the work took the Antiochus IV figure to be typological, prefiguring yet future enemies of the Jews. It was of course taken that way by Christian writers in the figure of the 'Antichrist'.

4 Ezra for example shows the interpretation was at odds with the one offered in Daniel itself:

"The eagle [i.e. Rome] which you saw coming up from the sea is the fourth kingdom which appeared in a vision to your brother Daniel. But it was not explained to him as I now explain it to you" (12:11-12).

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

peacefulpete

Lots of this stuff has been dealt with in great detail here before. As has been said, there is NO contemporary evidence of Jesus as a man walking around Palestine. The Josephus references often suggested are not what they have been made to appear to be. The Testimonium Flavianum (book 18) is a counterfeit addition. It interrupts the narrative, it uses non-Flalvian language, it uses wording only a Christain would, and did not exist prior to Eusebius. He likely inserted it. The second reference cited (book 20) the 'brother of Jesus' line, is lifted from context. Reading the context, we find a rivalry for the High Priesthood (anointed). Jesus was a high priest whose brother James, also high priest, was killed.

It became popular a few decades ago in the spirit of the original Jesus Seminar to take the Gospel versions and winnow out elements that are obvious embellishments to arrive at what they imagined was a historical core. That project ultimately failed for a basic reason, the nature of the literature itself. Literature generally falls into a category that represents its agenda and purpose. Despite the later interpretation of the Marcan story (and dozens of variations) as basically 'biographical', the work itself is more of an 'epic' prose story. As such there need not have been any actual historical biographical core. The author's use of character, place and time are part of the creativity of the story.

It would be similar to the collection of Daniel court tales in what are now chapts 1-6 in the Bible.

(The stories were part of an ancient Daniel cycle of legends in circulation perhaps as long ago as Ugaritic legend of Aqhat, if the two can be connected. What is certain is that the Daniel/Danel character inspired a body of literature prior to the apocalyptic chapters written under/during the Maccabees. The Qumran community had a special fondness for the character and preserved some of these stories. Further it is often missed that the David legends include a Daniel, (the second son of David, I Chron 3:1) who Rabbinic legend describe as extremely wise and among the 4 most righteous men of history, consumed with study of the Torah. (TB Bava Batra 17, TB Brachot 4). IMO, this character may represent the Danel of Ezekiel. Bible literalists might do well to accept this, as Ezekiel was said to have been written prior to the story depicted in the book of Daniel.)

Back on topic; it would be an error to attempt to take 'epics' and attempt to winnow out the magical parts and assume the rest to be historical. Hopefully that makes sense.

Unfortunately, that 'historist' approach is still popular. Even in regard the Testimonium Flavianum there are many hypotheticals of how to remove the most overtly Christian words so as to make a plausible genuine Flavian comment. This still ignores the absence of mention of it for hundreds of years, the interruptive nature and the abundant motive for its insertion. It also forgets the parallel Christain interpolations found in other places in Josephus that demonstrate the practice.

Members of the Jesus Seminar in time came to recognize that removing the magical and then removing the OT pesher exegesis material, left nothing. The story was 'epic' not 'biography'. Thomas Thompson famously took up that argument and published it.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

peacefulpete

My feelings of sadness are genuine. Human suffering, especially unnecessary, must always be forward in our minds. Bringing to justice those who inflict it is what keeps us civilized.

Martyrdom is a powerful story—one that inspires and captivates. The willingness to die for one’s beliefs is a narrative celebrated on monuments, war memorials, and museums throughout the Western world.

Very true. We romanticize martyrdom. My comments simply emphasize that martyrdom is not always a simple case of individual resolve to justice or love, and it is certainly not evidence of the truthfulness of their message, as this thread was about.

History is filled with martyrs for causes few of us would support.

For instance, JWs see their blood policy victims as martyrs. While we may recognize the right to self-determination, we probably don't idolize those who have died.

Humanity's best hope is education and compassionate action, not isolation and apocalypticism.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

peacefulpete

If everyone was neutral there would have been no war,

No, we would have self-interest and complacency......the very formula for war.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

peacefulpete

Slimboy...That was very insulting and completely inaccurate. The suffering and loss of the Jews the JWs as well as the Roma, the gays, and many others was a dark chapter that can never be repeated. Analyzing what went wrong for this to have happened leads me to conclude that, at least in part, the lack of vocal and resolute opposition to the propaganda and hate speech of the Nazi party on the part of the churches enabled the cancer to grow. The WT like other churches first attempted to placate Hitler and convince him they were no threat to him. For the WT it didn't work. The WT's antigovernment message was well known.

The sad reality is that if the churches, including the WT, had unitedly opposed the message of Hitler people would have listened. Their "neutrality" was wrong. Today, when we hear similar hate speech from individuals or authority figures we also have a responsibility to respond. Neutrality is an illusion; you are either against wrong or you are complicit. And yes, that includes use of force when absolutely necessary. If the WT allows a person to use force to defend family and church members, their choice to not do the same for their neighbor is not because of an objection to violence, it's a result of disconnect from society.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

peacefulpete

From the second link:

The Bekennende Kirche—the "Confessing Church"—emerged in opposition to the “German Christians.” Its founding document, the Barmen Confession of Faith, declared that the church's allegiance was to God and scripture, not a worldly Führer. Both the Confessing Church and the "German Christians" remained part of the German Evangelical Church, and the result was a Kirchenkampf, or "church struggle" within German Protestantism—an ongoing debate and struggle for control between those who sought a "nazified" church, those who opposed it, and the so-called "neutral" church leaders whose priority was the avoidance both of church schism and any kind of conflict with the Nazi state.

Interestingly, the majority of Catholic and protestant leadership assumed a position of "neutrality" They neither sought to support nor oppose the government, but did what was thought necessary for the continuation of their way of worship.

It is worth noting that JWs being targeted also wasn't because of opposing the Nazis, it was because of the nature of the church. Many suffered because of direction from Brooklyn that defined just what they could and could not do. What I mean is that no doubt many would have been left alone had they simply individually interpreted the salute as a formality, similar to standing before a judge, as many of other faiths where free to do. The hierarchal nature of the religion deprived them of that choice. I have never read that it was outspoken opposition to the antisemitism of Nazism, for example, that resulted in being targeted.

It ought never be forgotten that it was the individual convictions of Catholic and Protestants in the resistance and the Allied armies that saved the JWs.

If anything, WW2 demonstrates the dangers or neutrality and the danger s of hierarchal controls over morality.

8

1974 Watchtower Prophecies verses Dad’s Prophecies. Who was correct? An old guy reflects on calamity howling.

by Balaamsass2 in

calamity howling is always in style with some folks, every year.

1974 was 50 years ago this year!

i was fresh out of high school bright eyed and earnest about all things jw and watchtower.

peacefulpete

It seems 'calamity howling' and 'rage baiting' is everywhere.

Clickbait headlines today said, 'Russian bombers over Alaska!' Another said US jets had "intercepted" Russian planes,

The real news said Russian planes were well inside international waters and that such incursions by "Russian military aircraft occur regularly and are not seen as a threat". No interception was needed.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

peacefulpete

.1, They show love among themselves by not going to war. Not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true Christianity.

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?

If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.

"But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,"

All sects share a certain common bond, the better way is to show love in practical ways for all. That is what I believe was intended by John 13. Jesus is depicted as loving all. Not just his supporters.

2. They honour Jehovah’s name by using it and giving it prominence. Again this would seem to be a very basic requirement for Christians who are said to be called out of the nations as “a people for his name”.

A can of worms. Yahweh was one of the names in the OT but never used by NT writers. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

3. They reject the post biblical teaching of the Trinity which uses language that is not found in the Bible and distances people from God by making him appear incomprehensible.

A favorite pet topic for you, you have spent hundreds of hours posting about how you disagree with the church's efforts to formally codify a single definition of God/Christ/Holy Spirit. Suffice to say billions of Christians past and present have had their own take on it.

4. They teach the truth about who Jesus is as God’s firstborn and his loyal servant.

Same as above, the hypostatic expressions of sonship and servitude are not preclusive to traditional understanding of Christ as fully divine.

5. They point to God’s kingdom as the only hope for mankind as Jesus and the early Christian’s did and don’t get involved in politics or social or protest movements.

Another example of circular reasoning, take the JW definition of 'Kingdom' and cite it as proof of sectarian superiority. By the definition of the JWs, God is the 'only hope', not for "mankind" but a tiny portion of it. The rest must be killed. Billions understand the 'Kingdom of God' as an expression of forgiveness and compassion and a Christian movement seeking to imitate Jesus' universal love. Regarding 'involvement' in politics and war, most people see this as detachment from humanity. Failure to get 'involved' is often a definition of cowardice and unconcern. Many of the earliest records include Christians who were soldiers. The OT repeats a story cycle wherein worshippers of God served in foreign royal courts. The JWs have repeatedly engaged in campaigns to influence Government policy, (I personally marched across the Brooklyn bridge when asked to demonstrate against a zoning policy) they just only do it for themselves.

6. They preach and publish in more languages than any other group in history, fulfilling the Bible prophecy about preaching to all the earth in the last days.

The sectarian circular reasoning continues. The last Days were 2000 years ago, they were 1000 years ago they were a hundred years ago. For people wanting something that will never happen, it will always be the 'last days'. The same regarding the definition of the 'gospel' aka 'good news'. A third of the world has been converted to Christianity, certainly the 'gospel' was preached globally long before the JWs. As you know the NT itself asserts the gospel was preached to everyone 2000 years ago.

7. Their founder Russell rediscovered basic Bible truths at a time when technology was in place to facilitate the preaching work worldwide.

Russell was a cult leader adored by thousands as sent by God. His followers alive today identify the JWs as apostates.

8. Jehovah’s Witnesses have increased from a tiny number in one country to be a great crowd of worshippers from all nations of the world.

The one county is the USA, the time was the tail end of the Second Great Awakening. Hundreds of churches and movements arose, many became international.

9. Each of the JW leaders has been just what was needed at the time for Jehovah to accomplish his purpose: Russell to recover Bible truth; Rutherford to arrange a theocratic structure and remove remaining false beliefs and practices; Knorr to organize the logistics of an unprecedented worldwide preaching campaign; Franz to provide a Bible translation that accurately conveys God’s word; the Governing Body in the final part of this system of things to prepare God’s people to come through the Great Tribulation and into the new world.

You are describing the process of a cult of personality becoming a global corporation.

10. Witness teaching about humans looking forward to endless life on earth makes better sense as our biblical destiny rather than viewing this life a waiting room before we go to heaven.

Nearly all Christain denominations formally have a teaching that there will be a 'new earth', sectarian definitions and selective proof texting prevent any unanimous interpretation as to what was meant by various NT authors. 'Endless life' stuck on a planet you can circumnavigate in a week doesn't make sense to anyone who has actually thought about it. For that matter endless life anywhere sounds like the ravings of an egoist worried the universe couldn't continue without them.

11. Witness teaching that God’s sovereignty has been challenged and will be vindicated makes sense of human history, gives an explanation for suffering, and offers the hope that it will end permanently in the future under God’s kingdom.

This was another sectarian effort to justify millennia of failed expectations. The JWs stole the idea from earlier Adventists who called it "Cosmic Controversy" rather than "Universal Sovereignty". Again, anyone who thinks deeply about it knows this is a meaningless post hoc rationalization.