I don't understand the motivation, but some folks really enjoy yanking our chains. Posters like PioneerSchmioneer aka Kaleboutwest are obviously intelligent and have valuable contributions to make, so I don't get the game. All I know is the hot then cold, helpful then accusative whiplash is tiresome.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
Catfishing.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
I can't relate, I get better looking each day.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
Kaleb are you then suggesting the two introductory stories were,by design, supplementary and the work of the same hand?
Or simply that source critical approaches are uninteresting (and and perhaps futile) therefore assessing the final product is preferable.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
Yes, and as Kaleb said that ought not be any more surprising than his walking around his garden or talking with snakes
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
Somehow, when I believe I'm being clear, I'm not. My comments regarding the use of the conventions J and P (etc.) was to clarify that I'm not clinging to the Wellhausen form of source criticism. Yet the sources are distinct and my use of the labels is referent to the blocks of text not the hypotheticals associated with them.
My comment was in response to the suggestion that individual sources can be linked to Babylon more intimately than others. All the sources appear to have been active during and after the exile. (using older short legend and motifs) It's entirely possible they were near contemporaneous camps of scribes. It's been argued that an extensive narrative such as was created through the merging of individual compilations best fits the Greek period, as literature of that nature was unknown prior. It was also the beginning of the era of fastidious scribal copying, which fortunately prevented extensive improvements on the final composition, thereby enabling us to perceive some of the document's history.
The J story, whether you accept Freidman's belief that it was the backbone of the Pentateuch or not, betrays a nuanced talent, that to my understanding, resembles later Greek philosophical reuse of epic and satire. Perhaps I am reading too much into it.
The Bronze Age collapse might well explain the opportunity for local kingdoms in the Fertile Crescent to get established and likely was the ultimate source of certain threads of tradition in the Primary History, but I was focusing on the 5th to 2nd century as the period of advanced literature and philosophy reaching Palestine, Alexandria and Babylon.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
Jeffro...Here is a pretty persuasive recreation of the process behind the 'kid in mother's milk' passages.
Prohibition of Meat and Milk: Its Origins in the Text - TheTorah.com
I'll add that while I often use labels like J and P, in reality what I mean is distinct sources traditionally described as J, P, D etc. All of the sources and redactors were immersed in Babylonian. Persian and possibly/likely Greek culture.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
Kaleb, glad you returned. What impressed me with the explanation I just laid out, was the absence of Torah in the J story. in fact the absence of polemics or moralizing at all.
The story has a Greek flavor, meaning nearly satirical. The story is neither endorsing nor condemning the choice to become like God, it's actually a rhetorical thought exercise itself. What ifs are meant to be pondered. Would we have traded our freewill for the safety of the garden if that meant being merely one of the animals?
I can't help noticing your comments blend the 2 stories together. The P story features Torah and has none of the philosophical feel. God blessed and gives the earth to man and woman, the blessing is implied connected to Sabbath and God's word.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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peacefulpete
Just had an interesting interaction with a Rabbi online. His take was pretty interesting. In the spirit of comments from KaleboutWest, he emphasized the literary nature of the episode. His view, and apparently not an unusual one, is that the pericope is a dramatization of the superiority of humans over animals in their "being like God". This elevation has the consequences (cost) of self-awareness (nakedness) and acute sense of mortality (day you eat you will die). Rather than being a 'fall' in fact it was a celebration of human intelligence and psychology while acknowledging our mortality.
This then suggests all these elements of the story are primarily etiological. Just as the story is a mythical origin story for why women struggle in childbirth while other animals generally don't and why snakes have no legs, the story is a folk-tale-style treatise on human nature. The man and woman represent all people, so describing them as the first makes narrative sense.
Rather than being a commentary opposing freewill it is actually celebrating the maturation to godlikeness of humans. In a parallel way it celebrates individual growth from children to psychologically developed adults.
This is a much different take than I had adopted and find the idea quite plausible. It requires we credit the Yahwist with a developed sophistication that, ironically, countless readers did/do not possess.
My mind goes to the Orwell Animal Farm story as a comparison. Not really a happy ending but powerful animal symbolism of human condition.
Some might object to the depiction of God as essentially suppressing human potential, but this is actually a recurring theme, recall the tower of Babel story. Yahweh, as a character in these tales, is often depicted morally ambiguous.
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22
The Rapture
by Sea Breeze inwhen i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.
does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?
for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.
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peacefulpete
Pronger1....It's tempting to generalize about what Jews believed. However, the reality is 2nd temple Judaism was richly diverse. The extent literature from the time reveals no consensus regarding afterlife. Heaven, Gehenna, reincarnation, return to life on earth, no afterlife at all, all were accepted by various groups that identified as Jews. There were detailed depictions of multilayered heavens wherein OT characters were dwelling and martyrs could ascend to. The concept of 'Paradise' itself was just as diverse.
As a writer from a such a diverse period, Paul's understanding of the topic is open to debate. In fact, IMO, there seems to not be a clearly expressed concise belief in the writings attributed to him. He (as it reads today) seems to be struggling with the topic.
I'm going to step away for a while so best wishes on your research.