Posts by peacefulpete

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

Indeed, this is an aspect that is predominant in the Christian faith...the separation of God from his creation or anything else for that matter.

Many Jews and Christians would find that comment odd. Most would rather understand the animating of creation, including Adam, as the result of divine 'spirit/wind/breath' -a divine spark. Ecc 3 describes this divine 'spirit' as returning to God. Many saw the same in the trees and the wind.

This is still seen in pericopes like John 9:6 where the man's healing is accomplished by a wind. Same as John 5 where the invalids rushed to enter the water when a breeze (from God) disturbed the surface.

Not only that but on a theological level, the indwelling of Holy Spirit is the key identifier of a Christian. God/Christ dwells in Christians.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

Again, I'm not endorsing any theology here merely pointing out that many did not agree with the Deuteronomist. It's an interesting topic.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

Here, I was simply highlighting the inevitability of these stories to engage the most fundamental parts of ourselves...

Absolutely, I agree. Story and myth are powerful tools.

You might enjoy this classic:Amazon.com: The Power of Myth: 9780385418867: Joseph Campbell, Bill Moyers: Books

Regarding 'spirit' in inanimate processes and forces; many forms of religion, including that of the Jews, understood their world to be actively engaged/animated with spirit, as a causative agent. The deity was responsible for all that moves.

A famous example of this is at 1 Kings 19. It is a classic example of editorial redaction, interpolation. A standard theophany of Yahweh is painted, he reveals himself in wind, fire and earthquake. However, the Deuteronomist made some adjustments to the story that disturbed him. To keep this brief, he then repeatedly interjects a denial after each physical appearance/manifestation of Yahweh.

Here is the story, the bold is the redactors work.

11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of Yahweh, for Yahweh is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before Yahweh, (Yahweh was not in the wind). After the wind there was an earthquake, (Yahweh was not in the earthquake). 12 After the earthquake came a fire, (Yahweh was not in the fire). And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

There much more to this episode worthy of discussion but, my point is the Deuteronomist's adamant denial that his God was directly inhabiting the physical natural world. I'd suggest he'd similarly deny the idea of the divine animation/inhabitation of chemistry or even biology. For him Yahweh was separated from the physical world and not actively animating it.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

Halcon are you suggesting 'spirit' is involved in chemical reactions?

BTW, my earlier comments do not endorse the theology of the Yahwist author, I was just describing it. As a scribe or committee of scribes, they sought to promote the nomistic aspect of the cult. Obedience/compliance was valued above individualism and intellect. Personally, I don't regard that as especially enlightened or attractive. We left a religion like that.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

I tend to repeat myself a lot but recall the P version of the creation story has no Eden, no fruit, no snake, no 'fall' from grace, no curse of the ground etc. Rather it ends with God's blessing of the pair and declaring all to be good.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”...

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

I wonder what the world would be like if the compiler had only included this version.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

Agreed. Then again, if the Jesus story was also allegorical, why have I abandoned my family or, given my savings to the church....

26

What was covered up in your congregation??

by karter in

family move to remote pacific island to serve were the need is great get a mention in the year book.. however one of the (married) boys in the large family has sex with his sister while his wife is in hospital giving birth to their child.

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all hushed up not even a word said and hes now an elder d.fing people for lesser crimes.. young couple dating leave the jws and move in togather doing drugs partying ect.. his family grandfather,uncles, dad ect are all elders.. after a few years they decide to come back to the jws and are married in the k.h a few months latter.. 1 elder questions them getting married in the k.h and is voted down by his family.. to many drunks and c.s.a to mention.. karter..

peacefulpete

I feel no desire to air all the things I've seen between adults but, like KerryKing, I saw too much child abuse being dismissed as 'strict' parenting.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

Sometimes thought experiments serve a useful purpose. Pursuing a hypothetical to it's logical end, can be revealing. In the case of the Yahwist creation myth, it can become a rabbit hole.

The story was never intended to be logical, it screams that when it includes talking animals and magical fruit. (drawn from a deep pool of ancient myth) It was 'theological' in purpose. It pantomimes religious concepts like obedience to religious law when at odds with individual and intellectual freedom. As frustrating as that is for some to accept, that is the message.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

The operative word being 'fear'. Is that the basis for love? Or does that sound like people trying to manipulate others?

But to cut to the chase, I'm just as afraid of Yahweh as I am about Shemesh/Shamesh, the daughter of El/Ashera who was later morphed into Yahweh/Ashera.

Shapshu - Wikipedia

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

tel beth-shemesh is only about 7 acres on a low hill the population wasn't even close to 50,000 that number is a scribal error the actual number who died in the 1 samuel 6:19 account was 70

Actually the majority of Hebrew manuscripts say 5070 at 1 Sam (as well as the LXX). It's probably the 70 that is the scribal error.

Either way, the lesson you might learn is that the author thought of his God as prone to anger and violence or wrote such stories with the hope of evoking fear. Kinda like those churches that emphasize hellfire passages.

The second lesson you might learn is that the Bible is full of scribal error and redaction.

A third lesson is that the town's name is House of the Sun Goddess Shemesh which again suggests the story has a 5th century Yahwist whitewash.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

peacefulpete

he gave the philistines hemorrhoids once when they were really naughty and disrespectful
but that's more evidence of his sense of humor than anything else

Go back and read the story, Yahweh kills many Philistines and those that did not die had swellings on their private parts.

For there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there.... And the men that died not were smitten with the tumors; and the cry of the city went up to heaven.

When they return it he kills 50,070 Israelites because someone peeked into the ark. Not much of a sense of humor.