Posts by peacefulpete

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

I'm sure the fact that the evidence is insufficient to say anything assertively, dominates the response. I have also now found other articles that link the dual Aramaic/Hebrew composition with Qumran as well as numerous verbal similarities. FF Bruce many years ago assumed a Zadokite author, (TofR is understood as such, central issue for the community). Bruce never connects the TofR with the author directly but attribute to him interpretations unique to the community that envisioned a restoration soon. They saw the efforts of the Maccabees up to that point as "little help" but their hopes were with heavenly intervention. It also is suggested a reinterpretation subsequent the failure of the expectations. A more sectarian symbolic one after the Maccabees proved to be successful but corruption ensued.

In all, I like the suggestion that the TofR was the author/redactor but his identity unsurprisingly is lost to time and probably was unknown at the time it was "unsealed". Such is the point of pseudonymity.

I find the idea very attractive; all the ingredients are there, a charismatic homeless priest leads a movement of disillusioned and distraught pietists and a new document is 'unsealed' containing exactly what the group wants to hear, that soon Michael in some such way will be responsible for the end of distress and the glorification of the holy ones. That document is a pastiche of Daniel cycle material that was preexisting but not regarded canonical and interpretations supplied by the TofR. The group itself under subsequent leadership maintained the esteem of the work by reinterpretation, a process that continues to this day.

Then again the use of Dan by 1 Macc is suggestive that the work had it's source in that camp. Maybe the original intents of a Maccabean author was holier than I imagine.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

For by wise counsel you will wage your own war,

And in a multitude of counselors there is safety.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

I see that a Dr. John Trevore did a piece that suggested TofR as author/redactor of Daniel. I probably read it years ago and got the idea there.

The Book of Daniel and the Origin of the Qumran Community on JSTOR

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

sigh, you guys need a beer

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

Lighten up, I don't have many friends to compare notes with and I need you all to stick around.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

Kaleb....I've given it some thought and if I understood your comment regarding Maccabean authorship of Daniel correctly, I can't agree, at least without some more explanation. The Qumran community is the sticking point. Many have remarked that the character Daniel was important to the community, not just copies of the book we know but other versions of stories involving Daniel. That element plus the composite nature of the book of Daniel leads me to suspect someone associated with or esteemed by that community was the compiler/redactor during the duress of Antiochus.

The "Teacher of Right" would be a fine candidate, but who knows. If that is correct it reasonably could be a subsequent leader (or himself) that makes the additional calculation after initial disappointment made it necessary. In my mind I see someone with pious intentions using the literary device of pseudonymity to comfort a distressed people. I'm seeing a collection of tales and prophecy collected and redacted to be relevant. Noticeable also is the absence of any call to arms or glorification of armed resistance, but patient waiting for heaven to end the times of distress. The Qumran community in contrast to the Maccabeans were pacifists.

Given the absence of any witness to Daniel the prophet prior to that community (Unknown to Ben Sirach in his list of heroes) it makes sense to at least consider there for an origin.

After the Romans entered the scene, similarly pious Essenes (probably directly linked) were well esteemed as keepers of the Law brought the work to the larger Jewish awareness, some of whom subsequently misinterpreted it to be about Rome.

What do you think?

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

Have a na'im trip

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

There's a reason why Theodotion's version of Daniel supplanted the OG version.

Yes, in certain quarters for theological reasons.

The point of these articles is the variants seem to have had a role in Christian development. It's enjoyable for me to ponder the how's and why's but in the end, what we can be sure of is that it existed and was influential.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

Vidqun... I'd encourage you to read the links provided. You need to get access but it's free.

Lots of great comments, unlearning is twice as hard as learning.

40

Dates and times

by jhine in

last night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .

we have been working through the whole letter.

verses 1-11 start with .

peacefulpete

Jan... Carla answered your specific question well. All I was referring to was the 1 Thess 5 interpretation. Many were disappointed the Great War hadn't brought on Armagedón, unable to accept their error and embrace peace, they became effectively critical, dismissive of efforts for peace. Some would say they opposed peace, preferring for the world to be destroyed.