Jan... Carla answered your specific question well. All I was referring to was the 1 Thess 5 interpretation. Many were disappointed the Great War hadn't brought on Armagedón, unable to accept their error and embrace peace, they became effectively critical, dismissive of efforts for peace. Some would say they opposed peace, preferring for the world to be destroyed.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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Dates and times
by jhine inlast night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .
we have been working through the whole letter.
verses 1-11 start with .
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Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man
by peacefulpete inagain this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.
the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?
or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.
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peacefulpete
That was worth waiting for KoW. Good stuff. I've read others having concluded Daniel 7 was featuring Michael as SM. I follow the logic but have to question the obvious, why not simply make it explicit? Why describe the powerful angelic Prince as 'like a son of man' which has been argued effectively to imply human frailty in Daniel. I follow your logic regarding Joshuah usage of the term, but that was hundreds years distant and likely had different shades of meaning by the time of Dan 7 composition.
Matt 16 famously has Jesus ask who the people say the SM is, implying that their were multiple opinions centered around one of the prophets.
Much like you said: players are tropes borrowed from previous Jewish compositions, stories and writings
The answer insisting the SM and Messiah are one and the same reflects the view of the writer and his community not apparently the majority view even then. The half joking suggestion that the author imagined Daniel to be the SM isn't as crazy as it seems. Like I said the similar books of Enoch elevate Melchizedek, Enoch to godlike status.
I love the suggestion that the Hasmoneans themselves were responsible for Daniel. Maybe, but it would seem easier to assume someone with deep sympathies for their efforts, given the short sighted prediction.
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Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man
by peacefulpete inagain this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.
the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?
or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun...maybe think of it in parallel to Prov 8 description of lady Wisdom:
“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.”
Wisdom is the well-known emanation of God in his creative works and later Torah. Yet the imagery portrays 2 characters interacting. Of course in the Dan 7 OG the imagery is 'clarified', so the two are in fact visionary aspects of the same divinity, through the difference of a few words. The riding on clouds, the receiving "service/worship" and the sitting on throne all together strongly suggest the identification with the AD.
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40
Dates and times
by jhine inlast night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .
we have been working through the whole letter.
verses 1-11 start with .
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peacefulpete
Jan...what can I say other than it was the spirit of the times. WW1 had galvanized the minds of many that the end was near. The efforts of the League of Nations for example were condemned by a number of millenarians as a ruse of dark forces to blind believers to the truth, that peace was impossible. Any text that could be, was interpreted as confirming this mindset.
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40
Dates and times
by jhine inlast night at my bible study group we looked at 1thessalonians ch 5 .
we have been working through the whole letter.
verses 1-11 start with .
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peacefulpete
It is one of the more obvious misinterpretations of the WT.
The passage is literally saying not to speculate about when the destruction would come, insisting that it will be as unpredictable as a thief in the night and that there will not be a sign. (written before the Gospels) Everyone will be going about life as usual in peace, no terrors, no warnings. Then the advice is that Christians be always "awake" so as not be caught off guard.
It is hilarious actually that the WT and others before them spun the very verse into a sign, a sign of no signs! They lift the phrase "peace and safety" and create a new global event/sign to watch for.
It's like my doctor telling me there are no warnings for cancer to occur, it can happen when least expected, so I interpret my lack of symptoms as a sign of cancer.
On the converse, Paul seems to be saying assume that any day you will get cancer. I'm not sure how healthy that is.
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Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man
by peacefulpete inagain this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.
the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?
or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun....the OG translation you posted is apparently a 'corrected' version of the original.
It reads: ἐθεώρουν ἐν ὁράματι τῆς νυκτὸς καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶντοῦ οὐρανοῦ ὡς υἱὸς ἀνθρώπουἤρχετο καὶ [ἕ]ὡς παλαιὸςἡμερῶν παρῆνκαὶ οἱ παρεστηκότες παρῆσαν[προσήγαγον] αὐτῷ
Jeffro.....I can't help but think of the Enochic works. The Son of Man's throne is reserved ultimately for Enoch. Symbolism and typology dominated.
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Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man
by peacefulpete inagain this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.
the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?
or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.
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peacefulpete
Jeffro, I appreciate the response. I'm certain you are correct that the "one like a son of man" was intended to mean "like a man/human", that is the underlying irony/reversal of expectation being dramatized. Repeatedly in Daniel and related works the reversal of fortune/destiny figures into the concept of divine provenance. The unlikeliest, the downtrodden, the lowliest become the powerful. In this pericope, the divine (or other heavenly entity depending upon form of vs 13) taking on the appearance of a man is elevated to the eternal King. I'll add that no mention is made of David or Davidic messianism. Not all sects of Judaism shared that particular idea and it would appear the author had opportunity but did not include this concept.
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56
Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man
by peacefulpete inagain this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.
the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?
or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.
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peacefulpete
Reasonfirst....That book is referenced in one of the articles I linked. No reason to be shy around me, please share any insights or suggestions, pointless or not.
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56
Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man
by peacefulpete inagain this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.
the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?
or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.
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peacefulpete
SBF...You covered the topic pretty well. Identification shifted with time, politics, and translation. The crux of the matter is the pre-Christian developments that contributed to hypostatic Christology. The Son of Man appears in OG not merely as a messianic agent but as an aspect of God, much like Light, Logos, or Wisdom. Separate and described acting autonomously but yet in reality God.
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56
Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man
by peacefulpete inagain this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.
the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?
or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.
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peacefulpete
Vienna, It's a proposal that has some explanatory power. As he says unfortunately we have no ancient Hebrew versions with which to compare. Ultimately it doesn't matter as much as it seems. Once a variant text existed, readers understood the text differently. IOW, however the OG variant came to be (closer to original, scribal error, or theological alteration) subsequent readers would have seen the text differently...
You may have noticed this comment in the article:
We know that the language of Rev 1:13-14, where the exaltedJesus is called “son of man” but is depicted in terms that correspond tothe Ancient of Days of Dan 7:9 (“white hair”), was shaped by Dan 7:13OG, while other allusions to Daniel 7 – most notably in the Gospels – presuppose the clear distinction between the two characters found inthe Aramaic text and Theodotion.