Posts by peacefulpete

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

I realize the impression I left P.S. was one of obfuscation. And in her impression was I was ignoring her retort. So, though she has left the conversation, I wish to respond to few of her comments.

The mythology of the gospels aside, the rabbi known as Jesus of Nazareth was destined to crucifixion, no matter what as the priesthood of the time had no sympathy for messianic pretenders that publically embrassed them while creating powerful movements consisting of sympathic followers. Rome likewise did not appreciate anyone calling themselves "king"....

This argument pretty much ignores the larger thesis, the questionable historicity of Jesus and events described as occurring to him. The earliest evidence suggests that the "rulers" described as crucifying Jesus were thought of, not as Romans, but cosmic, spirit rulers who in fact do not recognize the Christ at all. And who if they had would not have unwittingly done God's will. Paul, even in the form we have today, retains this idea. The ascension of Isaiah too describes the efforts to disguise the Christ and the duping of these spirit rulers. If anyone wishes this can be discussed further, but for now, this is why I do not find the objection raised by P.S. persuasive.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

On top of all that, the tribes of Judah and Issachar are adjacent to each other (i.e. Iudas Issakhar in LXX) in Deuteronomy 27:12, and the following curse occurs a few verses later: "Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person" (v. 25).

Perhaps the Number 7 passage that deals with the inaugural sacrifices at the Temple are relevant as well. Notice the first two to bring sacrifices and gifts to the alter were tribes of Judah and Issachar.

10 And the rulers brought for the dedication of the altar, in the day in which he anointed it, and the rulers brought their gifts before the altar.
11 And the Lord said to Moses, One chief each day, they shall offer their gifts a chief each day for the dedication of the altar.
12 And he that offered his gift on the first day, was Naasson the son of Aminadab, prince of the tribe of Judah (Judas)....And he brought his gift, one silver charger of a hundred and thirty shekels was its weight, one silver bowl, of seventy shekels according to the holy shekel; both full of fine flour kneaded with oil for a meat-offering....15 One calf of the herd, one ram, one he-lamb of a year old for a whole-burnt-offering;

16 and one kid of the goats for a sin-offering..18 On the second day Nathanael son of Sogar, the prince of the tribe of Issachar, brought .
19 And he brought his gift, one silver charger, its weight a hundred and thirty shekels, one silver bowl of seventy shekels according to the holy shekel; both full of fine flour kneaded with oil for a meat-offering.

The close proximity to the words "silver" and 'thirty shekels might have contributed to this usage.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

Wow. Sorry to hear of your experience and sorry to have triggered some deep feelings. I have come to a better understanding of the strict definition of words like midrash for Jewish readers. The quotations/citations I provided were to illustrate the use of the word in a larger context. Perhaps an alternative terminology would be more sensitive. All the best to you.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

I think he was directing that at me but by extension Leolaia. For that matter Crossan, Thompson, Allison, or any other of the many scholars that recognize the intertextual character of the Gospels. Like I said, it's got me baffled.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

Sorry careful I was directing that to P.S.(pioneer schmioneer) His/their comments disappointed me. I'm not sure what to think. The person who posted that last comment and the one who posted in earlier threads seem like two different people. I am after all presenting nothing more than what they accepted was true of the OT, was continued in the Gospels,

Earlier he/they posted a comment much like mine in thought. :

Yet the Bible writers used different genres to preserve and pass on their truths. They often employed motifs familiar to the ancient reader. This meant borrowing from popular types and formats of ancient storytelling.....Like the Moses story, where as a babe, he is preserved from pharaoh by being placed in a reed basket and sent down the Nile only to be discovered by Pharaoh's daughter. This is likely not history but a borrowed mythological motif....

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

Regarding Leolaia, She has a rare gift, I lost contact quite a few years ago. She was teaching language at Stanford at the time. She is no longer there. All the best to her wherever she is.

P.S. You have no idea how disappointed your comments have made me. I'm hoping you may be able to take a step back and get excited again about learning new ideas and approaches or assisting us to do the same. We've had a number of well-schooled professionals on this forum willing to contribute to discussions, using their expertise to kindly steer those of us with less experience. Narkissos for example was/is a valued Greek translator as well as versed in the schools of philosophy. He tolerated amateurs such as myself. My 25 year passion for research began with a desire to understand the book I had imagined myself an expert. Now my puzzle solving nature craves resolution to the origin and earliest stages of Christianity. I've read literally hundreds of respected works on this and related topics. I've a pretty comprehensive view of the larger issues and controversies. I love learning, if you care to share something with me on this topic I'll always welcome it.

56

Today Dr. Peter McCullough said 'conspiracy theory' (which is in the April 2024 Watchtower) is a propaganda term! 😲

by was a new boy in

"misinformation, disinformation, science, this antiscience, uh conspiracy theory, these are propaganda terms.".

'don't use them' he says.

@ 19:33. https://youtu.be/miauulndllq?t=1173.

peacefulpete

Shortly after this we were disfellowshipped. You can say what you like but although theoretically you are allowed free speech in the organisation you are not.

I had to laugh at that one. Who exactly says "You are allowed Free speech in the organization"? That's news to me!

Will Watchtower ever release all $ documentation for their not being neutral on Covid-19 Vaccines?

The approved use of vaccines is not a political issue, despite how it has been framed by certain fringe elements. It is a medical/scientific matter. As such the WT is not under any obligation to be neutral anymore than on gravity, round earth or germ theory of disease.

Now, the issue of political neutrality is an ethical quagmire worth discussing, but to link political neutrality to use of vaccines just reflects the misguided political assumptions of the person not vaccines.

56

Today Dr. Peter McCullough said 'conspiracy theory' (which is in the April 2024 Watchtower) is a propaganda term! 😲

by was a new boy in

"misinformation, disinformation, science, this antiscience, uh conspiracy theory, these are propaganda terms.".

'don't use them' he says.

@ 19:33. https://youtu.be/miauulndllq?t=1173.

peacefulpete

So... it' a baseless conspiracy theory to suggest that baseless conspiracy theories exist and are dangerous?

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

The very essence of second temple Judaism (for want of a better word) was typological reading of OT stories with some perceived relevance to contemporary issues. What happened before would happen again as it were. Every letter of Tanakh was seen as brimming with significance beyond the text at face value. You of course know that.

Sectarian self identification with heroes and events of the past was everywhere.

Apart from that later usage, the OT itself is a collection of retellings of creation and savior cycles. Splitting of waters is famously obvious. IOW whatever the terminology preferred, the idea of perceiving an providential connection/equation of the past with the present/future is a very common concept in much of the ancient world including within Judaism.

That being the case, it's not surprising the sectarian authors of the Gospels made full use of the OT and related works in the creation of the narrative about a savior whose name (Joshuah/Jesus) itself drawn from these texts.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

peacefulpete

In another article on this topic of Midrashic typology in the NT,

https://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/1979-1_022.pdf

An early effort is made to explain the use of the word in a footnote:

1 It is not the purpose of this article to propose a precise definition of the terms midrash and midrashic. For a discussion of this problem see Le Deaut, "Apropos a Definition of Midrash," Int. 25 (1971) pp. 259-82, and Wright, "The Literary Genre Midrash," CBQ 28 (1966) pp. 105-38,417-57. In this article the term midrash will be used rather loosely. We will be considering many NT passages which comment upon the OT; such passages are "midrashic" in at least the etymological sense of the word, regardless how much they may differ from the halakhic or haggadic midrash. We need some term by which to refer to such passages, and "midrash" seems a logical choice. Some writers use this term in a different sense. For example S. Sandmel (The First Christian Century in Judaism and Christianity [New York: Oxford, 1967] p. 188) speaks of the gospels as a midrash on the life of Jesus. But in this article the term will be restricted to passages which comment upon the OT.