I think he was directing that at me but by extension Leolaia. For that matter Crossan, Thompson, Allison, or any other of the many scholars that recognize the intertextual character of the Gospels. Like I said, it's got me baffled.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
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60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
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peacefulpete
Sorry careful I was directing that to P.S.(pioneer schmioneer) His/their comments disappointed me. I'm not sure what to think. The person who posted that last comment and the one who posted in earlier threads seem like two different people. I am after all presenting nothing more than what they accepted was true of the OT, was continued in the Gospels,
Earlier he/they posted a comment much like mine in thought. :
Yet the Bible writers used different genres to preserve and pass on their truths. They often employed motifs familiar to the ancient reader. This meant borrowing from popular types and formats of ancient storytelling.....Like the Moses story, where as a babe, he is preserved from pharaoh by being placed in a reed basket and sent down the Nile only to be discovered by Pharaoh's daughter. This is likely not history but a borrowed mythological motif....
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60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
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peacefulpete
Regarding Leolaia, She has a rare gift, I lost contact quite a few years ago. She was teaching language at Stanford at the time. She is no longer there. All the best to her wherever she is.
P.S. You have no idea how disappointed your comments have made me. I'm hoping you may be able to take a step back and get excited again about learning new ideas and approaches or assisting us to do the same. We've had a number of well-schooled professionals on this forum willing to contribute to discussions, using their expertise to kindly steer those of us with less experience. Narkissos for example was/is a valued Greek translator as well as versed in the schools of philosophy. He tolerated amateurs such as myself. My 25 year passion for research began with a desire to understand the book I had imagined myself an expert. Now my puzzle solving nature craves resolution to the origin and earliest stages of Christianity. I've read literally hundreds of respected works on this and related topics. I've a pretty comprehensive view of the larger issues and controversies. I love learning, if you care to share something with me on this topic I'll always welcome it.
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Today Dr. Peter McCullough said 'conspiracy theory' (which is in the April 2024 Watchtower) is a propaganda term! 😲
by was a new boy in"misinformation, disinformation, science, this antiscience, uh conspiracy theory, these are propaganda terms.".
'don't use them' he says.
@ 19:33. https://youtu.be/miauulndllq?t=1173.
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peacefulpete
Shortly after this we were disfellowshipped. You can say what you like but although theoretically you are allowed free speech in the organisation you are not.
I had to laugh at that one. Who exactly says "You are allowed Free speech in the organization"? That's news to me!
Will Watchtower ever release all $ documentation for their not being neutral on Covid-19 Vaccines?
The approved use of vaccines is not a political issue, despite how it has been framed by certain fringe elements. It is a medical/scientific matter. As such the WT is not under any obligation to be neutral anymore than on gravity, round earth or germ theory of disease.
Now, the issue of political neutrality is an ethical quagmire worth discussing, but to link political neutrality to use of vaccines just reflects the misguided political assumptions of the person not vaccines.
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56
Today Dr. Peter McCullough said 'conspiracy theory' (which is in the April 2024 Watchtower) is a propaganda term! 😲
by was a new boy in"misinformation, disinformation, science, this antiscience, uh conspiracy theory, these are propaganda terms.".
'don't use them' he says.
@ 19:33. https://youtu.be/miauulndllq?t=1173.
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peacefulpete
So... it' a baseless conspiracy theory to suggest that baseless conspiracy theories exist and are dangerous?
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60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
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peacefulpete
The very essence of second temple Judaism (for want of a better word) was typological reading of OT stories with some perceived relevance to contemporary issues. What happened before would happen again as it were. Every letter of Tanakh was seen as brimming with significance beyond the text at face value. You of course know that.
Sectarian self identification with heroes and events of the past was everywhere.
Apart from that later usage, the OT itself is a collection of retellings of creation and savior cycles. Splitting of waters is famously obvious. IOW whatever the terminology preferred, the idea of perceiving an providential connection/equation of the past with the present/future is a very common concept in much of the ancient world including within Judaism.
That being the case, it's not surprising the sectarian authors of the Gospels made full use of the OT and related works in the creation of the narrative about a savior whose name (Joshuah/Jesus) itself drawn from these texts.
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60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
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peacefulpete
In another article on this topic of Midrashic typology in the NT,
https://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/1979-1_022.pdf
An early effort is made to explain the use of the word in a footnote:
1 It is not the purpose of this article to propose a precise definition of the terms midrash and midrashic. For a discussion of this problem see Le Deaut, "Apropos a Definition of Midrash," Int. 25 (1971) pp. 259-82, and Wright, "The Literary Genre Midrash," CBQ 28 (1966) pp. 105-38,417-57. In this article the term midrash will be used rather loosely. We will be considering many NT passages which comment upon the OT; such passages are "midrashic" in at least the etymological sense of the word, regardless how much they may differ from the halakhic or haggadic midrash. We need some term by which to refer to such passages, and "midrash" seems a logical choice. Some writers use this term in a different sense. For example S. Sandmel (The First Christian Century in Judaism and Christianity [New York: Oxford, 1967] p. 188) speaks of the gospels as a midrash on the life of Jesus. But in this article the term will be restricted to passages which comment upon the OT.
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60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
-
-
-
60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
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peacefulpete
It's helpful to think of the Gospel stories as OT midrash. Nearly every story element was drawn from past stories. Moses, Samuel, Joseph, David and others provided the details. This was in fact revealed by the authors through the continued phrase, "to fulfill or according to the scriptures"
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60
The Evolution of Judas Iscariot
by Leolaia inthe story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.
the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.
the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.
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peacefulpete
Just a follow up interesting detail. Papias is ostensibly quoted twice in Apollinarius' work. Leolaia focused on the longer version for much of her verbal analyses. The shorter version retains the chariot/wagon element but has him actually run over by one.
First the longer as discussed in the OP:
Judas walked about as an example of godlessness in this world, having been bloated so much in the flesh that he could not go through where a chariot goes easily, indeed not even his swollen head by itself. For the lids of his eyes, they say, were so puffed up that he could not see the light, and his own eyes could not be seen, not even by a physician with optics, such depth had they from the outer apparent surface. And his genitalia appeared more disgusting and greater than all formlessness, and he bore through them from his whole body flowing pus and worms, and to his shame these things alone were forced [out]. And after many tortures and torments, they say, when he had come to his end in his own place, from the place became deserted and uninhabited until now from the stench, but not even to this day can anyone go by that place unless they pinch their nostrils with their hands, so great did the outflow from his body spread out upon the earth.
Next the shorter version:
Judas lived his career in this world as an enormous example of impiety. He was so swollen in the flesh that he could not pass where a chariot could easily pass. Having been crushed by a chariot, his entrails poured out.
Was Apollinarius misquoting Papias or had Papias offered two renditions of the legend in different contexts? Apollinarius quotes the one in his commentary on Acts and the other in a commentary on Matthew.