From the preview alone I see his argument. From the standpoint of a ruler in the age of emperor cults, a form of Christianity that proclaimed a present age of divine goodwill would be preferable to one that despised the present world and wished for it's extinction. Hard to govern or elicit civic mindedness from detached Gnostics and apocalypse obsessed Christians.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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Gods on Paper and Stage
by peacefulpete inwere the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.
acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?
when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?
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Gods on Paper and Stage
by peacefulpete inwere the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.
acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?
when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?
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peacefulpete
I'll check it out.
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The ''dreaded'' birthday cake
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower—study edition | september 2023. study article 39. let mildness be your strength.
11 if a workmate asks, for example, why we do not celebrate birthdays, consider: could he be wondering whether we are allowed to have a good time?
or might he feel that our position will dampen the company’s team spirit?
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peacefulpete
Gen 21:8 The child [Isaac] grew and was [a]weaned, and Abraham held a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.
So ask your mom when she cut you off the teat and celebrate that day each year!
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The ''dreaded'' birthday cake
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower—study edition | september 2023. study article 39. let mildness be your strength.
11 if a workmate asks, for example, why we do not celebrate birthdays, consider: could he be wondering whether we are allowed to have a good time?
or might he feel that our position will dampen the company’s team spirit?
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peacefulpete
BTW Herod Antipas was definitely a worshiper of Yahweh. It was his father who built the temple for crying out loud! Antipas (4th generation convert to Judaism) himself kept the Jewish purity laws and such. That is the reason the Gospels give for his being rebuked by John the Baptist! JTB does not condemn the birthday nor do the writers of the Gospels. What was condemned was that, as a practicer of Judaism, he ought not have taken his brother's wife who was still alive. (lev 20:21 and 18:16).
If anything, this story demonstrates that some worshipers of Yahweh did celebrate birthdays and were not condemned for it.
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Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death
by peacefulpete init might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).
first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".
this herod is described mark 6:.
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peacefulpete
As an additional side note, the Gospel John does not mention JTB's death at all. However, the timeline in John distinctly contradicts the other timelines in the Synoptics. In G. John (chapter 3) JTB is depicted as flourishing and outspokenly endorsing Jesus as the Messiah after Jesus returns from Galilee, having fled there after the arrest of JTB according to Matt. This rather glaring chronological problem was observed long ago.
Note verse 24.
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized.24 (This was before John was put in prison.)
25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing.
This obvious addition (vs 24) within the text doesn't actually address the issue but simply brushes it aside for the casual reader.
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Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death
by peacefulpete init might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).
first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".
this herod is described mark 6:.
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peacefulpete
Now regarding the Mandean (Nazorean) version of the death of their greatest prophet. John is made to flee the anger of religious leaders from Palestine to the east. Later after 42 years of baptizing he is approached by a child who is a spirit. He leaves his body, which becomes one with the waters and ascends to the light.
The Death of John (Yahya) in Mandaean tradition is an ascent to Heaven, not unlike that which some Christians had claimed for their founder. It exists in several versions, which differ (among other things) in the degree of reluctance John shows at leaving his body. In the right-hand volume of the Ginza Rba (“Great Treasure”), which seems to be the earliest of several versions, this concern does appear:
Ginza Rba 5:4, 192-193. Then Manda d’Hayyi said to John, When I put my hand on you, you will depart from your body. John said to Manda d’Hayyi, I have seen you; now I will no longer be here. I have seen and reached you; now I beseech thee in truth. Do not curse me away from you, from the place from which you have come. Prepare me and give me instructions for the great place to which you are going. Have mercy upon me, and reveal to me the mysteries of the kings, about the Great Fruit of the Light, about the anvils and fruits of the Earth, against which they are pressed, about the anvils of the water, against which the living fire spreads, where the Life resides, which is earlier and greater than any other. [Manda d’Hayyi] undressed him from his clothes in the Jordan, he removed him from his garment of flesh and blood, he clothed him in a robe of splendor and covered him with a good pure turban of light. Manda d’Hayyi continued on his way to the place which is entirely aglow, to the place which is entirely light, and John went with him. The fish out of the sea and the birds of the two shores of the ocean rallied over the body of John and covered him. When John saw his body, he was troubled about it.
The Mandaean Death of John Charles G Häberl Rutgers University
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Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death
by peacefulpete init might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).
first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".
this herod is described mark 6:.
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peacefulpete
A side note is that the allusion to this Josephus reference in Origen is a bit puzzling.
He ascribes to John a baptism ‘for the remission of sins’, which explicitly contradicts Josephus (‘if baptism was to be acceptable to God. They must not employ it to gain pardon for whatever sins they committed’), and can merely tell us that John baptized Jesus, was called ‘Baptist’ and ‘promised purification to the people who were baptized’. It is only from the Christian tradition that he could acquire these details, as noted by Grant: ‘Origen made John’s baptism thoroughly Christian, claiming that he was simply relying on Josephus … The expression ‘‘for the remission of sins” is thoroughly Christian and Josephus did not use it.’ ( Rivka Nir‘,The First Christian Believer: In Search of John the Baptist)
Was Origen fudging what he saw or did the text read differently at that point in time?
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Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death
by peacefulpete init might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).
first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".
this herod is described mark 6:.
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peacefulpete
[18.116] Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God as a just punishment of what Herod had done against John, who was called the Baptist.
[18.117] For Herod had killed this good man, who had commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, righteousness towards one another and piety towards God. For only thus, in John's opinion, would the baptism he administered be acceptable to God, namely, if they used it to obtain not pardon for some sins but rather the cleansing of their bodies, inasmuch as it was taken for granted that their souls had already been purified by justice.
[18.118] Now many people came in crowds to him, for they were greatly moved by his words. Herod, who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise), thought it best to put him to death. In this way, he might prevent any mischief John might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late.
[18.119] Accordingly John was sent as a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Machaerus, the castle I already mentioned, and was put to death. Now the Jews thought that the destruction of his army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure with him.
Note the motivation is not his wife's anger nor his own evil designs but concern for rebellion because of the cultlike control John had over his followers. Also, John is removed from Antipas' presence and relocated to the castle in Galilee where he is seemingly immediately executed in an unknow fashion. No birthday, no dance.
You, upon reading, must have noticed the doublet (JTB being reason for Antipas' loss) and the strange adoration of the JTB who is otherwise being described as a potential threat to the Roman order. Recall who Josephus was. He was a Jewish general that switched sides and commissioned to describe the history of his people for Vespasian. He spent his career promoting the Roman system and allegiance. Maybe you can see why some suspect the passage has been altered. Further, as described in the link above, the pious language of the meaning of baptism is more than peculiar in this setting.
So what we have is a description of the death of JTB that differs from those found in the Gospels. The link above also offers a suggestion that the Christian who interpolated the JTB reference was from an early Ebionite or some other Jewish Christian sect and not from one that used a form of the Synoptics we are familiar with. Maybe, other gospels from that time do not mention it.
It is worth mentioning the intertextual nature of the execution scene. It's been recognized for centuries to have been inspired by the Esther story and the Elijah/Jezebel animosity of the OT.
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Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death
by peacefulpete init might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).
first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".
this herod is described mark 6:.
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-
peacefulpete
It is also worth noting that Luke while following Matt in adding the later inquiry from John the Batist regarding whether he was the Messiah, he does not say he was in prison, rather John is depicted as free and continuing his baptizing (7:29).
OK, so then moving forward. What about the Josephus reference to JTB?
First, it must be noted that the brief reference exists in all the variants and appears to be referenced by Origen and certainly by Eusebius so it seems safe to say the passage existed by the middle third century. The reason that is in question is due to the quite flattering description of JTB, use of certain terminology and the rather out of place definition of baptism. It is for these reasons some scholars have for many years suspected the passage as a Christian interpolation, or at least parts thereof. (e.g.(6) Josephus’ Account of John the Baptist: A Christian | Rivka Nir - Academia.edu) Ironically what convinces others that the passage is original is the way it contradicts the Gospel motivation for the killing.
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Gods on Paper and Stage
by peacefulpete inwere the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.
acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?
when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?
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peacefulpete
Phizzy.... While I tend to think there was a general progression away from anthropomorphism, I believe you are right. It seems there always was a tension between those attracted to transcendent mystery and those who needed tangibility.
Reading a bit recently about the Mandeans (Nazoreans) and am fascinated by their embrace of the Vedic-type faith yet venerate John the Bapt. as a both culmination of a line of Jewish prophets and greatest teacher of light and knowledge. Oh if only the Nazoreans had written histories from their earliest interactions with Judaism! The Mandeans/Nazoreans seem to represent the missing piece between with the Zoroastrians, Essenes, and Christian origins.