Posts by peacefulpete

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

Now regarding the Mandean (Nazorean) version of the death of their greatest prophet. John is made to flee the anger of religious leaders from Palestine to the east. Later after 42 years of baptizing he is approached by a child who is a spirit. He leaves his body, which becomes one with the waters and ascends to the light.

The Death of John (Yahya) in Mandaean tradition is an ascent to Heaven, not unlike that which some Christians had claimed for their founder. It exists in several versions, which differ (among other things) in the degree of reluctance John shows at leaving his body. In the right-hand volume of the Ginza Rba (“Great Treasure”), which seems to be the earliest of several versions, this concern does appear:
Ginza Rba 5:4, 192-193. Then Manda d’Hayyi said to John, When I put my hand on you, you will depart from your body. John said to Manda d’Hayyi, I have seen you; now I will no longer be here. I have seen and reached you; now I beseech thee in truth. Do not curse me away from you, from the place from which you have come. Prepare me and give me instructions for the great place to which you are going. Have mercy upon me, and reveal to me the mysteries of the kings, about the Great Fruit of the Light, about the anvils and fruits of the Earth, against which they are pressed, about the anvils of the water, against which the living fire spreads, where the Life resides, which is earlier and greater than any other. [Manda d’Hayyi] undressed him from his clothes in the Jordan, he removed him from his garment of flesh and blood, he clothed him in a robe of splendor and covered him with a good pure turban of light. Manda d’Hayyi continued on his way to the place which is entirely aglow, to the place which is entirely light, and John went with him. The fish out of the sea and the birds of the two shores of the ocean rallied over the body of John and covered him. When John saw his body, he was troubled about it.

The Mandaean Death of John Charles G Häberl Rutgers University

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

A side note is that the allusion to this Josephus reference in Origen is a bit puzzling.

He ascribes to John a baptism ‘for the remission of sins’, which explicitly contradicts Josephus (‘if baptism was to be acceptable to God. They must not employ it to gain pardon for whatever sins they committed’), and can merely tell us that John baptized Jesus, was called ‘Baptist’ and ‘promised purification to the people who were baptized’. It is only from the Christian tradition that he could acquire these details, as noted by Grant: ‘Origen made John’s baptism thoroughly Christian, claiming that he was simply relying on Josephus … The expression ‘‘for the remission of sins” is thoroughly Christian and Josephus did not use it.’ ( Rivka Nir‘,The First Christian Believer: In Search of John the Baptist)

Was Origen fudging what he saw or did the text read differently at that point in time?

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

[18.116] Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God as a just punishment of what Herod had done against John, who was called the Baptist.

[18.117] For Herod had killed this good man, who had commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, righteousness towards one another and piety towards God. For only thus, in John's opinion, would the baptism he administered be acceptable to God, namely, if they used it to obtain not pardon for some sins but rather the cleansing of their bodies, inasmuch as it was taken for granted that their souls had already been purified by justice.

[18.118] Now many people came in crowds to him, for they were greatly moved by his words. Herod, who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise), thought it best to put him to death. In this way, he might prevent any mischief John might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late.

[18.119] Accordingly John was sent as a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Machaerus, the castle I already mentioned, and was put to death. Now the Jews thought that the destruction of his army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure with him.

Note the motivation is not his wife's anger nor his own evil designs but concern for rebellion because of the cultlike control John had over his followers. Also, John is removed from Antipas' presence and relocated to the castle in Galilee where he is seemingly immediately executed in an unknow fashion. No birthday, no dance.

You, upon reading, must have noticed the doublet (JTB being reason for Antipas' loss) and the strange adoration of the JTB who is otherwise being described as a potential threat to the Roman order. Recall who Josephus was. He was a Jewish general that switched sides and commissioned to describe the history of his people for Vespasian. He spent his career promoting the Roman system and allegiance. Maybe you can see why some suspect the passage has been altered. Further, as described in the link above, the pious language of the meaning of baptism is more than peculiar in this setting.

So what we have is a description of the death of JTB that differs from those found in the Gospels. The link above also offers a suggestion that the Christian who interpolated the JTB reference was from an early Ebionite or some other Jewish Christian sect and not from one that used a form of the Synoptics we are familiar with. Maybe, other gospels from that time do not mention it.

It is worth mentioning the intertextual nature of the execution scene. It's been recognized for centuries to have been inspired by the Esther story and the Elijah/Jezebel animosity of the OT.

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

It is also worth noting that Luke while following Matt in adding the later inquiry from John the Batist regarding whether he was the Messiah, he does not say he was in prison, rather John is depicted as free and continuing his baptizing (7:29).

OK, so then moving forward. What about the Josephus reference to JTB?

First, it must be noted that the brief reference exists in all the variants and appears to be referenced by Origen and certainly by Eusebius so it seems safe to say the passage existed by the middle third century. The reason that is in question is due to the quite flattering description of JTB, use of certain terminology and the rather out of place definition of baptism. It is for these reasons some scholars have for many years suspected the passage as a Christian interpolation, or at least parts thereof. (e.g.(6) Josephus’ Account of John the Baptist: A Christian | Rivka Nir - Academia.edu) Ironically what convinces others that the passage is original is the way it contradicts the Gospel motivation for the killing.

8

Gods on Paper and Stage

by peacefulpete in

were the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.

acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?

when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?

peacefulpete

Phizzy.... While I tend to think there was a general progression away from anthropomorphism, I believe you are right. It seems there always was a tension between those attracted to transcendent mystery and those who needed tangibility.

Reading a bit recently about the Mandeans (Nazoreans) and am fascinated by their embrace of the Vedic-type faith yet venerate John the Bapt. as a both culmination of a line of Jewish prophets and greatest teacher of light and knowledge. Oh if only the Nazoreans had written histories from their earliest interactions with Judaism! The Mandeans/Nazoreans seem to represent the missing piece between with the Zoroastrians, Essenes, and Christian origins.

16

Fancy Dancer....JTB's Death

by peacefulpete in

it might surprise some to find that john the baptizer's (jtb) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the gospels, josephus and the mandeans (jewish gnostic sect that followed jtb).

first g.mark says john was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes jesus by "herod".

this herod is described mark 6:.

peacefulpete

It might surprise some to find that John the Baptizer's (JTB) death is described a number of ways in the traditions of the Gospels, Josephus and the Mandeans (Jewish gnostic sect that followed JTB).

First G.Mark says John was reluctantly killed soon after he baptizes Jesus by "Herod".

This Herod is described Mark 6:

14 King Herod heard of it, for Jesus'[a] name had become known. Some (also Luke, some mss use "He" to harmonize with Matthew) said, “John the Baptist[c] has been raised from the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at work in him.” ...16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.(?)”

Note: He is shocked by the reappearance/reincarnation/resurrection of JTB because he has beheaded him. (possibly due to the Jewish belief that beheading precluded resurrection)

17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, (i.e. against his will) his brother Philip's wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed (mss reveal likely harmonization with Luke's use of the word in describing Herod reaction to JTB's resurrection, some mss read, 'doing many things'), and yet he heard him gladly.
21 But an opportunity came (actually, at that season) when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his nobles and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 For when Herodias's ("Herod's" Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Codex Bezae, also switch of "his" to "her" a likely attempt to correct the text historically) daughter herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you.” 23 And he vowed to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom.” 24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptist.” 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” 26 And the king was exceedingly sorry, but because of his oaths and his guests he did not want to break his word to her. 27 And immediately the king sent an executioner with orders to bring John's[d] head. He went and beheaded him in the prison 28 and brought his head on a platter and gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother. 29 When his disciples heard of it, they came and took his body and laid it in a tomb.

The redactor whose work was named the G. of Matthew made a few changes. Notably he relocated the story to a later stage. Recall it is in only in Matt (11:2) that John is languishing in prison and only able to get stories of the miracles of Jesus and asks if he is the Messiah. This kinda/sorta offers an explanation as to why John was not his disciple. He was in prison! It doesn't however explain the question, since he was earlier the one who baptized Jesus and declared him the Messiah to his followers. We have potentially separate authors with different similar objectives, that of differentiating John and Jesus, as this is clearly and issue as the birthday scene testifies. John the Baptist was understood as having been equated with Jesus at some point. But lets read the birthday scene in Matt.:

14 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, 2 and he said to his attendants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
3 Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s (Western manuscripts delete the name Philip, to correct the text ) wife, 4 for John had been saying to him: “It is not lawful for you to have her.” 5 Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered John a prophet. (Here Herod is no longer reluctant dupe but eager to kill John).
6 On Herod’s birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for the guests and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 The king was exceedingly sorry (editorial fatigue?, he has previously changed the motivation with Herod seeking to kill john but accidentally retained Mark's distress over doing it) but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it.

The author of Luke drops the whole scene, likely as this author/redactor uses Josephus as a source in other sections and is aware that Josephus does not agree with the motive given by Mark and Matt.

I will continue this later

1

Lots of Conditioner

by peacefulpete in

ezekiel 8:3 he stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head.

then the spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and carried me in visions of god to jerusalem,.

dan:14:36 then the angel of the lord took him by the crown, and lifted him up by the hair of his head, and with the blast of his breath set him in babylon over the den.. gospel of the hebrews in reference to jesus:.

peacefulpete

Ezekiel 8:3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. Then the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and carried me in visions of God to Jerusalem,

Dan:14:36 Then the angel of the Lord took him by the crown, and lifted him up by the hair of his head, and with the blast of his breath set him in Babylon over the den.

Gospel of the Hebrews in reference to Jesus:

[Fragment 3] Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of my hairs and carry me away on to the great mountain Tabor.

— Origen, Commentary on John

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, I think sometimes the writer of a Gospel episode was quite simply wishing to comfort or inspire awe. That is a message in itself. If that can be accomplished by writing a story of how this character could calm the sea or heal a leper, that was a sufficient motive.

I think of the "Left Behind " series of books that were so popular. few years ago. I imagine the author had religious motivations and used storytelling to communicate them. Was he trying to deceive? No just communicating his religious beliefs.

In the case of the earliest forms of Christianity, as I understand it, they had an invisible God having sacrificed an invisible Son on an invisible plane of heaven (on a tree, yes trees were thought to be in heaven as earth was thought of as a reflection of heaven) by invisible forces of darkness. How do you make this potentially abstruse, abstract, distant drama meaningful?

By drawing extensively on OT (otherwise sacred stories) and building out a new story with the main "spiritual" elements incorporated.

Now it may not have happened in exactly that way, but, in some fashion, the fondness for midrashic adaptation of existing stories is evident here. When the story making officially stopped by the new Catholicizing movement and only approved stories were Canonized, Christianity became poorer. The faith became a church, the Church was now the faith.

8

Gods on Paper and Stage

by peacefulpete in

were the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.

acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?

when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?

peacefulpete

Sorry about repetition. Also poor grammar. Thought I'd have chance to edit. It took couple hours to appear. Anyway, comments discussion?

8

Gods on Paper and Stage

by peacefulpete in

were the works of homer, aeschylus, sophocles, etc.

acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories?

when homer placed dialog into athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?

peacefulpete

Were the works of Homer, Aeschylus, Sophocles, etc. acting blasphemously when creating their works of fiction because they included the gods in the stories? When Homer placed dialog into Athena's mouth, was he wrong to use his creativity to make her come alive for an audience?

There were critics of such playwrights for their impertinence, not for the act of dramatization but in some cases for the content. The more conservative among the Greeks felt the god's were depicted too human. But generally the practice was popular and regarded by some as essential for the religious health of the people. In fact, the god Dionysus (you know, the water to wine god) was the patron deity of theater.

Did the earliest Christians similarly feel similarly? Early forms of the faith may have seemed unapproachable, esoteric and reserved for the initiated. (2000 years later, people still find Paul "hard to understand".) A popularizing of the faith for the masses necessitated a theatrical presentation, a more accessible method of teaching through story telling. Stories of the godman interacting with humans, demonstrating his superiority, yet having a human touch. The writings of early church fathers and writers reveal a freeness to add or subtract from those stories, which betrays an understanding of the nature of the stories lost on the populace. In a similar way the intelligentsia of the Greek and Roman world generally understood Homer and similar works as allegory and mocked the popular uncritical belief in them as 'history'.

As it happens, the very depiction of the gods as interacting directly with humans, made the gods appear smaller and, for some, paved the way for disbelief, or at least a less spiritual view of the gods. Eyes of faith replaced with literal eyes as it were. In my mind a similar process happened among Christians, the literalizing of the stories reduced them to a fixed "freeze frame" of a previously metaphysical belief system. It worked and Christianity grew, especially among the 'unlearned and ordinary'. However, many then as today find Christianity intellectually unsatisfying or indefensible for that very reason.

There have been advocates for a return to a more mystical version, but against the background of the literalist, uni-dimensional popular species of Christianity, they come across as "out of their minds". Something Paul might have heard.