PM, the fact that parts of the Bible was written 2000 years ago seem to escape your notice (some of it is much, much older). Those were the days of slavery, the Roman Empire, and a multitude of militant nations that wanted to destroy each other. I can assure you racism was not foremost in their thoughts (actually the term did not exist in their vocabulary), survival was. Now you take Jesus and what happened there and compare it to the situation in the 20th century. Those terms were highlighted by Martin Luther King and his quest for equality. Certainly, things very far removed from the time of Jesus and his apostles. Things that happened in the Bible would be totally unacceptable today. Think of Lot offering his daughters to the mob, to protect his guests. But in those days things were different and people reasoned differently.
Posts by Vidqun
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36Was Jesus racist ? mP: YES with scriptures
by mP ini am starting a new thread, as i have had several posts with tec regarding this very matter.
in answer he said: i was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of israel.
in answer he said: it is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.
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Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?
by leavingwt inis biblical morality situational, based upon the arbitrary whims of yahweh?
murder is wrong... if god orders it however, then murder is right, and failing to murder is a sin.. .
exodus 20:13 versus 1 samuel 15:1, 7-11. .
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Vidqun
Matt. 23:35 mentions: "that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth from Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to you, All these tings will come upon this generation." Here I think he is referring to 2 Chron. 24:20-22. As far as I know, a lot of the prophets were persecuted, some killed. In those days the work of a prophet was not easy. So much for their morality.
Ps 104 is compared to the Song of Aten. I see the Psalm is not accredited to anybody. So, they might have borrowed some of the information from the Egyptians, who knows? Solomon again, was definitely involved in sun worship. He was married to an Egyptian princess, amongst others. He also collected horses and women, both against Jewish law. I guess he thought of himself as above the law (as king) and he could do whatever he wanted. Later Israelites also worshipped the sun (Ez. 8:16). There is an illusion to sun worship at 2 Kings 23:11. One book, Israelite Religions, mentioned: "The sun deity was subsumed by Yahweh, who took on its characteristics. The actual symbol of the sun disk became a later symbol in the Judean monarchy." So Biblical morality would not be established overnight. It would develop slowly over the years.
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Who Knows The Exact Current Interpretation of "Generation" Please!
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inwould someone please explain the current interpretation of the generation.
this topic is one that is causing alot of confussion and turmoil.
jwn, you.
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Vidqun
Good example Freeof1914. That explanation should warrant a new dictionary write-up.
And Niolau, I love it.
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Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?
by leavingwt inis biblical morality situational, based upon the arbitrary whims of yahweh?
murder is wrong... if god orders it however, then murder is right, and failing to murder is a sin.. .
exodus 20:13 versus 1 samuel 15:1, 7-11. .
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Vidqun
MP, earlier the thread touched upon genetics (see Sebastious, p. 3). This is a continuation thereof, my opinion of course. The thread also touched on David (p. 2 of the thread). Better late than never. Psalm 139 is a Psalm of David, touching on genetics, with David as its author, believe it or not. The Egyptian angle is new to me.
By the way, my opinion of Solomon, he had it all and he blew it big time. Where was I? Now we get to Abraham and the covenant. Jacob and Esau, again the genetic angle, comes in here. God chose Jacob even before he was born, and concluded the covenant with him (see my comment on this page, i.e., p. 13).
Where does the Bible say God rejected the Jews? Try these, no lesser authority than Jesus himself: Matt. 21:42-44; 23:37, 38; Luk. 13:34, 35. There’s an interesting one in Zechariah (11:10, 14). The covenant with the Jews will be annulled (CSBO, ESV, NET). Daniel (9:27a) is also a good one if you believe in the Messianic fulfilment of Dan. 9.
Sorry if I confused you.
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Who Knows The Exact Current Interpretation of "Generation" Please!
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inwould someone please explain the current interpretation of the generation.
this topic is one that is causing alot of confussion and turmoil.
jwn, you.
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Vidqun
Djeggnog, I am glad you are proficient in languages. Not all of us are. When there is doubt or misunderstanding of a word, then it is time to bring in the dictionaries, like in this case. Etymology would be handy in the case of the Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek word, not so much the English equivalent. In addition, the NWT is an American Bible, translated in the US of A, thus my use of Webster. I would say it is very relevant, or did they use the wrong English word for Greek genea? You be the judge. I know for a fact that the new "generation" interpretation of the Society is unique and unparallelled in the literature. That means they have created a novel and new interpretation that should be added to the list of standard English interpretations (e.g., those by Webster) or even those used by the Oxford dictionary, if you prefer to use that one. If it is as straight forward as you say, why is it so difficult to understand?
Quick lesson on the beasts according to JW theology. Notice "the beast that ascends out of the abyss" cannot bet the same as "the beast out of the sea", two different beasts altogether. According to the Society these are the same (see my quotes and footnote from the Revelation Climax-book):
Beast that ascends out of the abyss
This is the beast that “was, but is not, and yet is destined to ascend out of the abyss” (of inactivity). After World War I it would start off as the League of Nations, disappearing in the clouds of World War II. Afterwards it would be resurrected as the United Nations (cf. Rev. 17:8, 11). This is the beast that would kill the two witnesses (Rev. 11:7-10). In the book of Daniel it would be given the title “the [ultimate] abomination causing desolation” (Dan. 8:13; 11:31). This beast stands in the place of God’s kingdom, therefore an abomination in God’s eyes (cf. Ps. 46:8, 9; 72:3, 7, 8; Is. 2:4; Mic. 4:3).
Beast that ascends out of the earth
This beast out of the earth, is called “the false prophet”, i.e., the Anglo-American world power (Rev. 13:11), the seventh head of the beast, as well as the seventh mountain or kingdom, according to Rev. 17:9. It misleads, enslaves, and “performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind”. Eventually it would be destroyed (cf. Rev. 13:13, 14, 16; 19:20; 20:10). See False prophet.
Beast that ascends out of the sea
This composite beast stands on the sand of the sea, meaning it originates from the sea of humankind, similar to Daniels’ four beasts. It has seven heads and ten horns. The seven heads point to Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the British Empire. It looks like a leopard, has the feet of a bear, and mouth of a lion. The dragon gives it its throne, power, and great authority. One of the heads, i.e., the British Empire, had a death-stroke, yet revived. Two World Wars would devastate its economy. Only after joining forces with the Americans, would it survive the onslaught of the King of the North (cf. Is. 57:20, 21; Dan. 7:2, 3; Rev. 13:1, 2; 17:15). See Beast that had the death-stroke.
Beast that had the death-stroke
In Daniel (7:8, 20) we read of a small horn unseating three horns. It would become big and speak “grandiose things”. The British Empire would humiliate Spain, France, and the Netherlands to become the dominant world power. Its Royal Navy would rule the waves. In Revelation it is part of a beast with seven heads and ten horns. One of the heads had a “death-stroke and yet revived”. The beast spoke “great things and blasphemies”. People followed it in admiration. Authority was given it by the Dragon, Satan the Devil (cf. Rev. 13:3, 4, 12, 14). Its economy would be devastated by two World Wars. However, it would be bailed out by the Americans, becoming part of the seventh mountain or kingdom, the Anglo-American Empire of Rev. 17:9.
False prophet
This beast from the earth is the Anglo-American world power (Rev. 13:11), the seventh head of the beast, as well as the seventh mountain or kingdom, according to Rev. 17:9. It misleads, enslaves, and “performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind” (cf. Rev. 13:13, 14, 16). See Beast out of the earth.
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Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?
by leavingwt inis biblical morality situational, based upon the arbitrary whims of yahweh?
murder is wrong... if god orders it however, then murder is right, and failing to murder is a sin.. .
exodus 20:13 versus 1 samuel 15:1, 7-11. .
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Vidqun
Here I have to come in and defend the Jews, even though not being one myself. Individual Jews did stand out, and still stand out as special. Here specifically Albert Einstein comes to mind. The Nazis were so busy stiring up hatred agaist the Jews, they missed out on some important Jewish discoveries. According to Encyclopaedia Brittanica t he rising Nazi movement found a convenient target in relativity, branding it “Jewish physics” and sponsoring conferences and book burnings to denounce Einstein and his theories. If one studies the events that lead to the development of the atomic bomb, one notices that quite a few Jewish scientists contributed. Here J.R. Oppenheimer comes to mind. Just as well, if the Nazis produced the bomb first, it would have changed the course of history for the worse.
If God is indeed all-powerful (= the Almighty) he would have steered events in a certain direction. And yes, as the Creator, God could have utilized genetics to some extent for his will to take place. He did choose Jacob above Esau even before they were born (cf. Gen. 29:3). Also Ps. 139:13-16 makes for some interesting reading in that regard. As seen God did choose the Jews. They were entrusted with His sacred pronouncements (Rom. 3:1, 2). Later he rejected them because of their disobedience.
As the Creator, God's morality would be different from ours. Ps. 139:17 says: "So to me how difficult your thoughts are! O God, how much do the grand sum of them amount to?" A similar thought is contained at Rom. 11:33.
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Who Knows The Exact Current Interpretation of "Generation" Please!
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inwould someone please explain the current interpretation of the generation.
this topic is one that is causing alot of confussion and turmoil.
jwn, you.
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Vidqun
Djeggnog, I have news for you. The NWT has been translated into English. So, to understand a word, or the use of a word, one first and foremost needs to consult an English dictionary. Then one looks up the context, then one looks at the same word in other parts of the Bible. To make sure one’s interpretation of a word or phrase is correct, one must then consult original language dictionaries and commentaries. In the case of “generation” of Matt. 24:34 it has been established that the Society’s interpretation of the word has resulted in a new meaning. It is amalgamation of two separate and independent definitions given by a lexicon. The lexicon gives it as “either/or”, but the Society uses “and”. They merge two definitions to establish a brand new meaning of the word. As I have remarked earlier, this is not what the editors of the lexicon intended, therefore it is dishonest and misleading on the Society’s part.
I believe the computer and the Internet signalled the demise of the Society. Who could check the information and quotes in the publications in the past? Only a handful of brave souls with certain means at their disposal. These were ridiculed and villified for their trouble. Now everyone with a mind of his (or her) own can check their credentials and sources. And I’m afraid that a great deal of the information cannot stand up to the intense scrutiny. It does not make the grade. Dishonest scholarship is picked up immediately.
Another telling example is the Society’s identity of the beast “ascending out of the abyss” of Revelation 11:7. At Rev. 17 it is clearly identified with the League of Nations and the United Nations (Revelation Climax-book, Chapter 34, p. 248).
6 The scarlet-colored wild beast did indeed climb out of the abyss. On June 26, 1945, with noisy fanfare in San Francisco, U.S.A., 50 nations voted to accept the Charter of the United Nations organization. This body was “to maintain international peace and security.” There were many similarities between the League and the UN. TheWorldBookEncyclopedia notes: “In some ways, the UN resembles the League of Nations, which was organized after World War I . . . Many of the nations that founded the UN had also founded the League. Like the League, the UN was established to help keep peace between nations. The main organs of the UN are much like those of the League.” The UN, then, is actually a revival of the scarlet-colored wild beast. Its membership of some 190 nations far exceeds that of the League’s 63; it has also taken on broader responsibilities than its predecessor.
But at Rev. 11:7 it is identified as the great political beast of Revelation 13:1 “ascending out of the sea” (Revelation Climax-book, Chapter 25, pp. 167, 168).
21 From 1914 to 1918 the nations were occupied with the first world war. Nationalistic feelings ran high, and in the spring of 1918, the religious enemies of the two witnesses took advantage of the situation. They maneuvered the State’s legal apparatus so that responsible ministers of the Bible Students were imprisoned on false charges of sedition. Faithful coworkers were stunned. Kingdom activity almost ceased. It was as though the preaching work were dead.
Notice the footnote (p. 167):
The “abyss” (Greek, a′bys·sos; Hebrew, tehohm′) refers symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2.) In a literal sense,
however, it can also refer to the vast sea. The Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” (Psalm 71:20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) Thus, “the
wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” can be identified with the “wild beast ascending out of the sea.”—Revelation 11:7; 13:1.
Why would they do it? To defend their 1914-1918 doctrine at all costs, even at the expense of honest scholarship. I am sure that you are sincere in your beliefs, but it is sad that you defend their dishonesty. You are defending the indefensible. That is sad, very sad.
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Sooo Armageddon comes....
by MsGrowingGirl20 inso let's say armageddon comes,do you believe that all jw's would be destroyed because jehovah knows it's a false religion...it can't be denied,for the most part,they try to live by the bible...if anybody has to be punished i would say it's the leaders...i know that god wouldn't judge a whole organization but persons individually....so what i'm trying to ask is....do you think you're in a better position right now not for freedom but for salvation than the witnesses??
if by the time you're finished reading this post armageddon is here...would u wish that you still were a witness or are you satisfied that you've made god proud?.
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Vidqun
MSGG20, according to the prophecies (if you believe in them) a lot of things must happen before Armageddon comes. Look at Ez. 39, 10; Dan. 11:40-45; Zech. 14:1-3; Rev. 11:7, 8, etc. Armageddon should be the last thing on your mind. Rom. 14:12 says each one of us will render an account for himself to God. So make sure of your relationship with Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. That's what matters at this stage. Don't worry too much about the rest.
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Do Wicked Elders and Elderettes Think Jehovah Is Stupid?
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inbrother pathological liar has remained in his position (appointed by the holy spirit) for thirty years now.
he has no problem lying under oath.
(prayer before a judicial comitte, investigation) or slandering anyone who might stand up to his darkness.
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Vidqun
Blondie, David was a major cog in the machinery of God's purpose. Take David out, and the whole thing falls flat. Granted, I do spy an amount of favoritism there. David was God's blue-eyed boy. He would indeed get away with murder. But the insurrection of Absalom and all the heartache that followed were part of the punishment. Eventually David did die, thus paying for (all) his sins.
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Do Wicked Elders and Elderettes Think Jehovah Is Stupid?
by Bubblegum Apotheosis inbrother pathological liar has remained in his position (appointed by the holy spirit) for thirty years now.
he has no problem lying under oath.
(prayer before a judicial comitte, investigation) or slandering anyone who might stand up to his darkness.
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Vidqun
Alfred, your elder sounds very much like a dictatorial elder that I know of. He always had a lot to say about the sisters' underwear, especially the youngsters wearing G-strings. He complained to their parents. How the hell did he know that? He really had to look carefully to pick that up.