Posts by Searril

29

Watchtower views on Homosexuality

by ttm1988 in

afternoon all,.

a bit on my background.

i studied with the jw's a while ago in my teens, was acitve in meetings, and all the other things good witnesses do.

Searril

How do you know the past thinkers that came up with the "currently accepted meaning" are correct?

It (Romans) seems pretty self-explanatory to me, but I am definitely willing to listen if someone can show me the traditional understanding is incorrect. I assumed that you agreed about the meaning as well or you wouldn't have skipped it when we were discussing the other verses.

(BTW, if by "other cultural references" you mean things like rape then that's a discussion that's already been beaten to death again and again and has been shown that the word rape did not necessarily have the same meaning as it does now, so I don't see the point in wasting my time repeating what's already been shown so many times. Even a few hundred years ago rape did not necessarily mean sexual violence.)

29

Watchtower views on Homosexuality

by ttm1988 in

afternoon all,.

a bit on my background.

i studied with the jw's a while ago in my teens, was acitve in meetings, and all the other things good witnesses do.

Searril

jworld, thank you for your response. What you wrote is what I have read on other sites regarding this issue, so I assumed it was where you were going, but I wanted to make sure before commenting.

While I have read that argument before and on the surface it does appear to have some merit (I have not researched it extensively to gauge exactly how much merit it does have), I am struck by this:

Aside from Romans

Which is where I was afraid the issue would end. I haven't yet seen an argument for why the comments in Romans may mean anything other than the typically accepted meaning.

For the record, I should state that I'm one of those rare Christians who just doesn't care about homosexuality. I'm not "liberal" in my Christianity by any other measure that one would typically use, but I just cannot ever find it in myself to care whether someone is gay or not (although I will never support or make excuses for the whackos who dress up in diapers in pride parades or act flamboyantly). I have wondered if I will be judged harshly by God for not having a stronger aversion to it when I see it. I honestly just don't know.

But if there is information that could lead me to believe the traditional view of homosexuality is incorrect, then I would really like to see it even if just to give myself peace of mind for not hating it. But all explanations seem to always fall flat in the face of Romans, which has so far lead me to the inescapable conclusion that I am wrong.

I hope you understand why I was asking.

29

Watchtower views on Homosexuality

by ttm1988 in

afternoon all,.

a bit on my background.

i studied with the jw's a while ago in my teens, was acitve in meetings, and all the other things good witnesses do.

Searril

The fact that gay marriage doesn't appear in the bible doesn't mean it condems it.

If this response was to me (I'm not sure) then gay marriage is not the source of my question. My question is about the practice of homosexuality itself.

29

Watchtower views on Homosexuality

by ttm1988 in

afternoon all,.

a bit on my background.

i studied with the jw's a while ago in my teens, was acitve in meetings, and all the other things good witnesses do.

Searril

Do you not realize that, in the event you were permitted to be baptized by them, the first instance you were seen to have engaged in any type of homosexual behavior you would immediately be disfellowshipped? I don't see how a guaranteed disfellowshipping is better than simply not joining the religion at all.

Concerning this:

b) encourage gay members to stay, in the knowledge that God does not hate them, as long as they moved into monogamous loving relationships

I am a Christian (which is to say I do not support the Watchtower Society), but am not a "gay-basher" as some are. But there are a number of scriptures that would appear to outright condemn homosexuality with no mention of monogamy as a qualifier for acceptance. I'm curious where does your reasoning concerning the monogamy come from and have you explored this justification with any ministry members from other churches?

70

If the WT dumped 1914 tommorow ...?

by faithfulslavedriver in

this is my first post here.

i've been a lurker for awhile but had no particular desire to join until the other day.. anyways, do you think that if wt decided to face the fact that 607-1914 is an indefensible pile of crap that has been artificially kept steaming for way too long, would it really kick off a mass exodus or anything?

in the short term the fds/gb might lose some authority, but they are hemorrhaging people anyways keeping it around (607 started me on the road to this place).. if wt stopped talking about 1914 for awhile then later killed it, blaming it on "further research" or something, and acknowledged some uncertainty in 607/587, i really doubt that very many of the r&f would think much about it.

Searril

As you've been still unwilling to answer my simple questions I must assume that not a single person on the planet has accepted you as the Messiah. Would the real Messiah have trouble convincing even one single person out of 7 billion?

70

If the WT dumped 1914 tommorow ...?

by faithfulslavedriver in

this is my first post here.

i've been a lurker for awhile but had no particular desire to join until the other day.. anyways, do you think that if wt decided to face the fact that 607-1914 is an indefensible pile of crap that has been artificially kept steaming for way too long, would it really kick off a mass exodus or anything?

in the short term the fds/gb might lose some authority, but they are hemorrhaging people anyways keeping it around (607 started me on the road to this place).. if wt stopped talking about 1914 for awhile then later killed it, blaming it on "further research" or something, and acknowledged some uncertainty in 607/587, i really doubt that very many of the r&f would think much about it.

Searril

Still waiting for answers.

70

If the WT dumped 1914 tommorow ...?

by faithfulslavedriver in

this is my first post here.

i've been a lurker for awhile but had no particular desire to join until the other day.. anyways, do you think that if wt decided to face the fact that 607-1914 is an indefensible pile of crap that has been artificially kept steaming for way too long, would it really kick off a mass exodus or anything?

in the short term the fds/gb might lose some authority, but they are hemorrhaging people anyways keeping it around (607 started me on the road to this place).. if wt stopped talking about 1914 for awhile then later killed it, blaming it on "further research" or something, and acknowledged some uncertainty in 607/587, i really doubt that very many of the r&f would think much about it.

Searril

I became the messiah on December 25, 1992.

Although I'm not a regular here, I have seen you post this multiple times. I am curious. Do you have followers? What I mean by that is obviously you know that no one here believes you are the messiah. Do you have anyone currently in your life right now who accepts you as the messiah and publicly confesses as much?

I'm coming out now more since likely Armageddon will occur this year. I'm to be revealed soon so I'm providing some background and context for when I'm revealed.

If Armageddon did not come this year, how would that affect your beliefs about yourself? If Armageddon did not come for the next 5 or 10 years?

Would you find it reasonable, if you were me, to confess you as the messiah and take the risk of destroying my salvation if it turned out you really aren't the messiah since you haven't given any evidence of such. I think we can agree that Jesus had no trouble giving evidence that he was who he claimed to be.

41

Christians don't "warn" people of god's judgement, they "threaten" people with god's judgement.

by JonathanH in

i was reading an article recently where a street preacher is on trial for yelling at gay people that they will burn in hell.

he's arguing for freedom of speech.

whether or not that is within his rights is not really my concern here.

Searril

If, in your mind, simply declaring oneself to be something, whether or not the person displays the qualities that are indicative of that thing, is all that is required to be that thing, then I will never be able to reason with you.

I cannot prevent you from believing every non-Christian is a Christian if you desire to do so, but that won't make it true and won't make it reasonable to believe.

So continue calling hateful people Christians if you want, but it won't make them Christians and it won't make people who know better believe they are Christians.

41

Christians don't "warn" people of god's judgement, they "threaten" people with god's judgement.

by JonathanH in

i was reading an article recently where a street preacher is on trial for yelling at gay people that they will burn in hell.

he's arguing for freedom of speech.

whether or not that is within his rights is not really my concern here.

Searril

It is one thing to warn someone of a pending action that you -do not- support. It is quite another thing to warn someone of a pending action that you -do- support. When you support the threat contained in the message, the listener naturally feels threatened. If "threat" is not exactly the correct word for the second type of warning because the messenger isn't the one who will execute the action, do you have a better word that conveys the distinction?

I have not given any thought to what word, other than "warning", that would be appropriate under scenario #2 in your example. It seems to me that the word "warning" suffices perfectly.

If I pull out the state's law books and turn to the statute that details the definition of murder and the punishment of such action, and then I read it to you, am I threatening you or am I informing you of what the law says may happen to you if you engage in the aforementioned crime? It cannot be a threat as I am not a police officer and I have no power nor authority to force the court to give you any sentence that is not handed down by a judge who is completely separate from me.

We can make analogies back and forth until the cows come home, but in the end I have zero power over anyone, and zero influence with those who do have power, so I cannot issue threats toward any person, nor do I wish to. I have enough to worry about keeping my own self in order without being concerned about leveling threats against someone else's behavior.

God will never ask my advice on what should be permitted, and if He ever were to do so He would undoubtedly disagree with me on my judgments. But Jesus says He requires mercy, not sacrafice, and I take Him at His word that He will be understanding toward my frailty.

41

Christians don't "warn" people of god's judgement, they "threaten" people with god's judgement.

by JonathanH in

i was reading an article recently where a street preacher is on trial for yelling at gay people that they will burn in hell.

he's arguing for freedom of speech.

whether or not that is within his rights is not really my concern here.

Searril

I am a pacifist. My interpretation of pacifism tells me it is right for me to go around blowing people's head's off with my shotgun.

Do you believe I am a pacifist?