Posts by scotoma

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

Fraz,

I never said "all humans are equally vulnerable to cults". I recognize every dimension of personality as being variable by degrees.

Especially in the area of the softer sciences - psychology, economics, sociology, anthropology you will see professors, therapists etc. peddling some serious woo. And I don't mean "working hypothesis". I mean they have a solid belief in methods that are really unproven. Just start a critical discussion about Carl Jung and you will get a pretty good gauge of how smart people can be vulnerable. Even the renowned scientist Wolfgang Pauli got sucked into Jung's vortex. Alcoholic geniuses will believe in God so they can get cured of their habit through Alcoholics Anonymous. Look up Rupert Sheldrake and his morphogenic fields theory. Do you ever watch how often Wayne Dyer gets a chance to sell his crap on educational television?

I admit that when I was younger I read Dianetics (early 1970's) and rejected it. I toyed with biorhythms for a couple months. Transcendental Meditation has never done anything for me - probably because I am already too transcendental! I even became addicted to Skinnerian behaviorism and read all of skinners books and his autobiography. None of these ideas have been robust enough to hold me. But there are millions of people who are highly educated but fall under the spell of a charismatic lecturer. Watch a few Ted lectures if you aren't convinced. If that isn't enough walk into your local Apple "Genius" bar and observe these people who are willing to pay the estate of Steve Jobs for the privilege of belonging to the church of "stolen innovation".

All humans are not equally vulnerable to cults but education doesn't seem to be a panacea. And why should we even want people to NOT be vulnerable to cults. What people become interested in is associated with their need for novelty. And out of novelty comes discovery. So maybe we have to put up with all the dead ends of novelty to get a better understanding of our universe. Neil Degrasse Tyson gives an excellent lecture addressing the belief that education makes the difference. Look it up on YouTube it's called "The Perimeter of Ignorance". Basically he points out that of the top scientists of the academy 15% profess a belief in God compared to 90% of the public. He asks why isn't it 0% of the top scientists.

So, your critique of my "working hypothesis" is mostly an emotional reaction. Senator Proxmire of Wisconsin used to hand out the Golden Fleece award to what he considered the most ridiculous research the government funded. One year it involved studying the sexual behavior of cock-roaches. Ha Ha Ha!. But if you want to control an infestation of cock-roaches don't you think it might be helpful to understand something about their sex life? So what's so objectionable about exploring religious books for some kind of evidence of alien communication. Do you believe that there is a greater or lesser likelihood that there are other more advanced civilizations in this universe? Or do you think that humans are the unique creation of an all-knowing, all-powerful god everlasting God? To be creative you need to have a capacity to withstand ridicule. Being able to withstand ridicule is not going to guarantee the production of some great idea but without that ability it is likely you will never have a great idea.

The way most people react to the Bible when they become informed enough to understand that there is no god is to discard the Bible. This is naturalistic thinking not creative-possibility thinking. Dismissing God doesn't eliminate the possibility of other sentient beings that might have an interest in human success on earth. And just because there has been no voice from heaven or on a worldwide TV hook-up doesn't limit the possibility. And just because there is the possibility that the Bible contains messages from an advanced civilization doesn't mean everyone is obligated to investigate that possibility. There are an infinite number of areas that scientists could investigate that an individual might not be interested. It doesn't rock everyone's boat. My personal obsession is without a doubt prompted by being raised a JW.

What if Israel and Palestinians don't reach an accord? There is nothing in the Bible that says they will. I have merely presented it as a possible candidate for the type of peace agreement that could be considered a major accomplishment if it actually happened. Is it likely that it will happen? Judging by news events it doesn't seem possible. But it has gotten the worlds attention. It has been a festering problem to most of the civilized world because it spawns terrorism and wastes resources in wars and weapons. It is such a tiny area but the effect is to justify tyrants who have kept over a billion people in the Mideast from joining the modern world. Even though Americans don't care much about this it is worth paying attention to even if you don't feel it has any prophetic meaning.

If it doesn't happen it is simply the null hypothesis. That is the difference between a scientific investigation and religious dogma.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

You're just "ribbin" me.

Probably beef ribs.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

Frazzled,

Humans are all vulnerable to cultish behavior. We are always trying to find a narrative that makes sense. I am more likely to believe in my own erroneous thoughts than to buy into someone else's explanation. But, I am aware of that process. The worst case is when others start to believe you and you get caught up in the transcendental temptation. I don't see that happening. As you and others have said I'm pretty "far out". But there is a difference between being far out and being far off.

I hear no voices. I don't believe in demons. I am a strict materialist. I don't believe in ESP, souls separate from bodies and it seems the promise of a resurrection is kind of a ruse. There surely is other intelligent life in the universe when you consider its size so that isn't really a big stretch or highly imaginative. If there is life it is material life that has evolved just like we have evolved plus or minus some things that each evolutionary path assembles.

Now with mass communication if aliens ever want to communicate with humans they will speak directly and not through human agents. So if someone says they talk to aliens hand them your business card and tell them where they can reach you if they have something to say.

A hypothesis is NOT a theory. As I said I am proposing a working hypothesis not too different from Setti but different in the object of the search. Setti listens to radio waves. I look for hints in religious writings. I only pay serious attention to claims that involve strange visitations by angels. I look for homology between the various incidents and the types of warnings. At its best I've only come up with what you would label a B rated SciFi scenario.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

Frazzled,

The whole concept of prophecy is disturbing to ex JW’s. After all it was prophecy that probably
hooked them in the first place. The entire foundation of JW’s is rooted in the belief that they are
the ones that God is using to serve the prophetic role. There is an ever present fear about the
horrible things that are about to take place. The sense of futility about engaging in any of the
normal activities of life drove them to a frenzied pace of activity that they felt was a requirement
for divine protection. So the mere suggestion that some prophecy is true stirs the fear that
whatever life they have tried to salvage might have to be put on hold again. That would be
unbearable. Prophecy doesn’t disturb me because I an atheist.

I arrived at the atheist position directly without complicated philosophical argumentation. .
Suppose some entity appeared to me and claimed to be the Top God. How could such a God even
expect me to believe him. What could such an entity do to prove to me they are omniscient and
omnipotent and had no beginning. To verify those claims I would also need to be omniscient,
omnipotent and everlasting. For that matter I could never even verify my own omniscience (if I
were) since I could only know what I know and could not know what I don’t know.

The next step is to look for “any kind” of evidence that there are even entities with extraordinary
powers that would at least evoke trust in their benevolence. For instance what would be so hard
for someone less than almighty to restore a few old people to their youth. While not proving they
were God Almighty such an entity would be God-Enough for me to want to become better
acquainted and perhaps even hang out. There are a lot of spectacular things that some being
somewhere might be able to do that would lure humans into worship. So far there has been
nothing spectacular.

So what should I do with the Bible? Should I throw the scriptures out with God? Most people
make that choice. It is “a choice” but not necessarily the only choice. Even evolution improvises
on what has been useful. Evolution is NOT revolution. Usually evolution doesn’t start from
scratch. Evolution continues from wherever it is. Evolution will keep vestigial organs around
and adapt them to a new function. From this orientation could there be something of value to
scripture? The only way to know is to form a working hypothesis that presumes some utility. So,
I choose to see if there is some salvageable aspect of the Bible.

Setti, has been scanning the radio signals coming to the earth in search of evidence that someone
out there might be trying to contact us. A similar effort has recently been attempted at searching
the internet for traces of time travelers through references to things that didn’t happen yet. Don’t
judge these efforts based on the negative results. They are appropriate questions for scientific
inquiry. They begin as What-If propositions or working hypotheses. So when it comes to the
Bible my working hypothesis is: What if an advanced civilization was trying to preserve a
promising species of intelligent beings on a planet, perhaps like humans on earth. Their motive
wouldn’t be for exploitation but simply preservation. In our current state we have discovered
indigenous populations in various parts of the world and have pursued a pattern of exploitation
by turning people into slaves and confiscating their resources. Trying to leap-frog these cultures
into a “modern” world has had tragic consequences.

My hypothesis is that if there were some “Older Brother” planets they might be observing the
progress of civilizations like ours and nudge them in the direction of survival. The goal would be
to have a subtle influence which means to allow things to develop over time with overt
interference only exercised at a point that would threaten survival. The most effective minimal
way of influence would probably be through sacred texts. Such texts would have to be put
together early in the game to give them sacred status in the eyes of a significant population.
I see possibilities that the Bible could be such a text. Most of the Bible is junk for us today.
But it would have to be functional to the people that would faithfully copy it for thousands of
years. Such a text would not be the place to reveal scientific knowledge. It could be dangerous
to accelerate the natural process of discovering things.

The Bible seems to address the most serious problem with any life form. You can’t have life
without a self. Life is “self-moving”, “self-sustaining”, “self-directing” and “self-orienting”.
Life is the consequence of establishing a circular process that replicates by incorporating
chemicals from the environment. Metabolism eventually forms a boundary or “cell-wall”.
That’s the start of the process that leads to complicated organisms. Without this boundary life
would have very little integrity. The trouble with “boundary” is that it leads to competition for
life sustaining chemicals. Competition then leads to conflict. At the point where social
organizations of sentient beings arise the conflict has to give way to cooperation for survival of
everyone. In simple terms the Bible addresses the problem of warfare.

The Old Testament was necessary to form a nation that could be slowly prepared for the
dissolution of nationhood. The Messiah was anticipated as a protector of the nation of Israel.
Jesus showed up at an opportune moment. Empires reached the point where they could rearrange
boundary any way they desired.. Nations could not resist the penetration of empires like Rome.
The new boundary needed to be ideological. Not an ideology that emerged from geography
bound cultures that were destined to fight to maintain their physical boundaries but an ideology
of cooperation and tolerance.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones that avoid involvement in the divisive politics and
nationalism that govern the world. While not doing so perfectly they at least have actually turned
their swords into plowshares and don’t engage in war and would rather die than kill. To me this
is very strange and noteworthy. The prophecies in the Bible point to a final confrontation on the
earth. Not a confrontation between good and evil but between two ideologies that are both evil.
One is collective and totalitarian and the other is based on laissez-faire greed. Both are intent on
ruling the world. Daniel describes the pre-armageddon/interference tribulation as a battle
between the King of the North and the King of the South. Revelation describes this struggle as
Babylon the Great (King of the South) trying to ride the totalitarian Wild Beast eventually ending
in Babylon the Greats destruction.

At the point where these entities would practically destroy each other the Kingdom of the Sky
will finally step in and set up good government based on cooperation. Following this line of
thought over the past 30 years I have been able to arrive at a coherent explanation for most Bible
prophecy.
These Big Brother protectors of sentient life in the universe don’t have to be omniscient to know
the probable development of geopolitics. They could look at the geographical structure of
oceans, continents, and climate and be able to do some sophisticated statistical correlational
analysis and be able to make the kind of predictions you see in the Bible. These Big Brothers
have no doubt had experience with millions of planets and have an extensive database for their
predictions.

These Big Brother protectors don’t have to be omnipotent to dominate the armies of this planet.
There are credible reports of UFO’s appearing at Missile installations and disabling them.

Metatron knows more about this then I do.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

Designs,

The British left a mess in India and Pakistan too.

Kuwait was a British invention to protect the oil flow in the Persian Gulf.

The United States had a better idea. Find minorities in existing countries and put them in power and then train their secret service to keep the majority in line. The reward was exclusive access to raw materials at high profits to American partners. That pretty much describes the fornication of the USA. "Her traveling merchants have become the top ranking men in the earth".

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

Bobcat,

The sentence is constructed as a quotation of what "they" - the sleepers would be saying. It is a declarative statement that is being quoted. It would be something more than just saying "All is well, so goodnight" If they are simply enjoying the usual and ordinary tranquility there would be no need to set it apart as a direct quote of the day. Because the final days are described as being turbulent there would have to be some event that would contradict that state of affairs. "Peace and Security" is NOT the norm. Christians who are not asleep will not be deluded by declarations that progress has been achieved thus justifying a chorus of people exchanging this assessment of conditions.

I will grant you the right to your oppinion because there is enough ambiguity to the statement to allow alternative explanations.

However, I prefer my understanding because it supports the contrast with inflated hopes followed by intense disappointment.

Christians will be on guard for something that will tip them off to the sudden destruction thereby avoiding shock. It will not be "business as usual" but rather somehthing out of the ordinary that will make the sleepers look one direction while the people who have been forwarned will be preparing for escape.

44

Heart vs Mind - What Makes Us Human

by ballistic in

jw
friends

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01kpvj1/heart_vs_mind_what_makes_us_human/.

i was watching this bbc iplayer programme on heart and mind, (which is well worth a watch if you can access where you are).

and despite how the programme starts out, it develops into a deep and touching discussion of what makes us human.. i personally was left with the feeling at odds with what i believed as a witness.

scotoma

A thermostat is a good illustration. You have a bi-metalic strip that bends with temperature change. That's sensory.

You have the circuit that closes when the bi-metalic strip bends enough to connect the cirucit. That's like brain or cybernetics which means to steer by choosing a direction.

When the cirucuit is closed it activates the furnace which then works to alter the environment. The furnace is like the motor system of the body - muscles do the work.

The invisible part of the thermostat system is the human need for a comfortable temperature.

Nothing happens without "need". An emotional person is often called a "needy" person. Rational people will overule their needs to accomplish something they think is more important.

The only thing that is more important than your "needs" is an emergency that would kill you or someone else or do serious harm to your future supply of something you need.

The brain is a collection of set points "steering" you toward pleasure and away from pain.

Human brains are different because of their ability to modify things so that they get more pleasure and they can calculate the probability of a danger to better avoid or manage it.

The brain is best at managing "NO". If a man proposes marriage to a woman and she hesitates and says she needs to "think" about it, her answer most likely will be NO.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

Those who make a point of highlighting the extremely low probability of peace between Israel and Palestine are at the same time setting the stage for my main point.

My main point is that such an event, if it does occurr, would be extraordinary - and it is some kind of extraordinary declaration of "peace and security" that would be required by the prophecy at 1Thess 5:3.

I would agree with Metatron that some kind of organic peace brought about by demographics and economic boycotts of Israel is more likely and also would be the best chance of vindicating the Palestinian cause. Worldwide sympathy expressed through the economic boycot would lead to a true reconciliation.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

As far as any announcement of peace and security this would be about as good as it gets.

A single - highly sought after accomplishment - years in the making.

Finally it happens.

No it won't be a fait accompli.

The massaged article above is based on an actual article in the New York Times when the Egyptian-Israeli agreement was signed. It gives an idea of what a peace celebration looks like.

In that case there was the celebrated signing and over many months it was fully implemented.

The scripture in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 doesn't say "Whenever it is that they have accomplishedpeace and security". No it's when they are simply SAYING peace and security.

The bottom drops out while the ink of their intentions is barely dry.

Two words are used to emphasize how soon after such a declaration is made to show how rapid destruction follows:

"then SUDDEN destruction is to be INSTANTLY upon them." It isn't bad enough that it happens suddenly indicating surprise it also occurs instantly in time after crying peace and security so that there will be no doubt that whatever occurs as the signal to flee, will be clearly understood by those who are in expectation of such an event.

26

Special Dispatch From the Future: Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty

by scotoma in

jw
friends

palestine and israel sign formal treaty, ending a state of war after 65 years; mahmoud abbas .

and netanyahu praise kerrys role.

ceremony is festive .

scotoma

Palestine and Israel Sign Formal Treaty, Ending a State of War After 65 Years; Mahmoud Abbas
and Netanyahu Praise Kerry’s Role

Ceremony is Festive
Accord on West Bank Opens Way to Peace in Mideast Dispute
By Bernard Gwertzman

Special to The New York Times

RELATED HEADLINES
Treaty Impact Still Unkown: 'Hopes and Dreams' But 'No Illusions' for Obama

Mood of Peace Seems Somber And Uncertain

Washington, March 26 -- After confronting each other for nearly 65 years as hostile neighbors,
Palestine and Israel signed a formal treaty at the White house today to establish peace and
"normal and friendly relations."

On this chilly early spring day, about 1,500 invited guests and millions more watching television
saw Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas of Palestine and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of
Israel put their signatures on the Arabic, Hebrew and English versions of thepeace treaty between
Israel and Palestine.

John Kerry who was credited by both leaders for having made the agreement possible, signed, as
a witness, for the United States. In a somber speech he said, "Peace has come."

'The First Step of Peace'

"We have won, at last, the first step of peace -- a first step on a long and difficult road," he added.

Later, at a state dinner, Mr. Netanyahu suggested that Secretary of State Kerry be given the Nobel
Peace Prize, and Mr. Mahmoud Abbas agreed.

At the signing ceremony, all three leaders offered prayers that the treaty would bring true peace
to the Middle East and end the enmity that has erupted into war four times since Israel declared
its independence on May 14, 1948.

By coincidence, they all referred to the words of the Prophet Isaiah.

"Let us work together until the day comes when they beat their swords into plowshares and their
spears into pruning books," Mr. Mahmoud Abbas said in his paraphrase of the biblical text.

'No More War,' Netanyahu Says

Mr. Netanyahu, who gave the longest and most emotional of the addresses, exclaimed: "No more
war, if we can achieve peace the whole world can do the same. peace unto you, shalom, saalam, forever"

"Shalom" and "salaam" are the Hebrew and Arabic words for "peace."

The Israeli leader, noted for oratorical skill, provided a dash of humor when in the course of his
speech he seconded Mr. Mahmoud Abbas's remark that Mr.Kerry was "the unknown soldier of the
peacemaking effort," Mr. Netanyahu said, pausing, "I agree, but as usual with an amendment"
-that Mr. Kerry was not completely unknown and that his peace effort would "be remembered
and recorded by generations to come."

Since Mr. Netanyahu was known through the negotiations as a stickler for details, much to the
American side's annoyance, Mr. Kerry seemed to explode with laughter at Mr. Netanyahu's
reference to "an amendment."

Minutes later, Mr. Netanyahu was deeply somber as he put on the Jewish skull cap and quoted in
Hebrew from Psalm 126.

The signing was followed by an outdoor dinner on the South Lawn at the White House for 1,300
guests.

The treaty was the result of nine months of grueling, often frustrating negotiations that finally
were concluded early this morning when a final compromise was reached on the last remaining
issue - a timetable for Israel to give up West Bank Settlements. Under the treaty, Israel will
withdraw its military forces and civilians from the West Bank in stages over three years.
Two-thirds of the area will be returned within nine months, after formal ratification documents
are exchanged. The ratification process is expected to Netanyahu in about two weeks.

In return for Israel's withdrawal, Palestine has agreed to end the state of war and to establish
peace. After the initial nine-month withdrawal is completed, Palestine and Israel will establish
"normal and friendly relations" in many fields, including diplomatic, cultural and economic
relations.