Posts by Quendi

50

Ray Franz - is he REALLY a hero?

by baltar447 in

jw
friends

on one hand, he's enlightnened many to the internal circle jerk that is the governing body (circa the 70s).. but if there's one reason that can be pointed to for the jws becoming full on cult, it's ray franz.

without him leaving in the manner he did, and stirring the pot, they might not have change the rule (retroatively i might add) on shunning of disassociated ones.

they specifically changed that so they could remove him and eliminate his influence.. his actions single handedly have created the situation where we have to fade, evade, leave marriages, say goodbye to family, just because we don't buy the jw bullsh!t anymore.

Quendi

Thanks, Finkelstein and Giordano for sharing. I remember those days. The Ray Franz episode was a mighty earthquake in the organization and its aftershocks are still being felt even though all the principals who were involved are now dead. I met Ray Franz shortly after he and his wife left Bethel. He gave a talk at the West congregation in Tuscaloosa, Alabama which was very well received. My initial impression of him was that he was warm, personable and humble, the kind of man I would have liked to have as a friend. One powerful impression I took away from his talk was his deep concern for people. He made me think of him more as a shepherd than an elder. Shepherds have always been rare among Witness elders, but Ray Franz took that aspect of being a congregation overseer very seriously.

As for his books, I have only read Crisis of Conscience. I was intrigued by his unveiling the workings of the WTS inner sanctum. However, I was struck by something that has always disturbed me. Why did Ray Franz see nothing wrong with probing into the sex lives of other Witnesses. It seems to me that the first thing he should have pointed out to other Governing Body members was just how inappropriate and wrong it was for them to debate such issues. The response that should have been given to any and all inquiries from Witnesses of that nature was, "This is none of our business. You must see to it yourselves."

Quendi

22

A comment to make witnesses ears prick up and think.

by stuckinarut2 in

so the next time you are in a group of witnesses and discussion about a sad event where people died occurs (such as a car accident, natural disaster etc), just casually say:.

" oh well, that's a few less people jehovah has to kill at armageddon.....so don't be upset!...at least they now get a resurrection".

that will make witnesses think!.

Quendi

Yes, villagegirl, it is a cult, but that doesn't mean we have to resort to cheap sarcasm in our responses to its members. Sarcasm has its place, but it seems to me that it should be among the last approaches we should use and not the first. Otherwise, we are no better than the cultists we disagree with. I understand why many think it is appropriate because of the pain and suffering they, friends or family have endured from cult members. Nevertheless, I would think that those of us who have been afflicted by Jehovah's Witnesses would hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for those who mistreat us. Lashing out in the manner the original poster and those agreeing with him or her does against Witnesses does not conform to that kind of love in my opinion. I'm sure many will strongly disagree with me about this and they are entitled to their point of view. But as has been stated elsewhere, some of us think that it is not just the cult's leaders who are incorrigible, but all of their followers are as well and should be treated as beneath contempt. That is not a course I wish to follow.

Quendi

22

A comment to make witnesses ears prick up and think.

by stuckinarut2 in

so the next time you are in a group of witnesses and discussion about a sad event where people died occurs (such as a car accident, natural disaster etc), just casually say:.

" oh well, that's a few less people jehovah has to kill at armageddon.....so don't be upset!...at least they now get a resurrection".

that will make witnesses think!.

Quendi

In my more than thirty years' association with the cult, I never heard any Witness utter those words or express those kinds of sentiments. Maybe my experience was unusual, but most of the Witnesses I knew were not so heartless and/or callous. They may have hated field service and the preaching work, but they did not think that people's deaths at Armageddon was something to casually dismiss. Nor did they think that death due to the circumstances of this world was a good thing unless it meant that the victims would be resurrected into the new order. As a matter of fact, when discussing such events, the more common sentiment was that such people were covered by the ransom sacrifice and would almost certainly get a resurrection. I myself would never say such a thing sarcastically or otherwise. There are other ways of exposing the bankruptcy of Witness theology than this way.

Quendi

56

Anyone recall asemblies actually being fun?

by tim hooper in

jw
friends

when i was a wee lad, there was a carnival atmosphere at assemblies as this old footage will show:.

.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/witnesses-baptised/query/jehovahs+witnesses.

Quendi

My very first district convention was in 1975 at Huntsville, Alabama. My last was in 2005 in Loveland, Colorado. Those early years were a lot of fun for the reasons others have already given. Maybe being a single man who was foot-loose and fancy free made them so, but I look back on them fondly. Now I am only too glad to miss them and as others have noted, as the years passed conventions became more of a chore than a joy. I'm glad to have convention-free summers now and wouldn't trade them for anything.

Quendi

89

Could There Be Another Mass Exodus From This Cult?

by mrquik in

jw
friends

it's happened before.

how much crap can any rational human being take before they just snap & walk away disgusted?.

Quendi

I remember the 1970s in this cult. I started studying in 1974 and got baptized in January 1976. Many were disappointed and left in the years that immediately followed 1975, but the majority of us held on for various reasons. I think one of those may have been a seldom mentioned or remembered development which occurred in 1980. During the summer conventions that year, the WTS shouldered some responsibility for building up everyone's expectations about 1975. Note that I said "some" because it certainly refused to accept all, instead putting much of the onus for the disappointment squarely on the rank-and-file. After 1980, the Society never mentioned the 1975 fiasco again with the hope that its memory would fade in time. That strategy proved to be sound for very few who became Witnesses in the succeeding decades ever heard about those frenzied years when most of us believed that The End was truly near.

This cult survived the failed hopes of 1914, 1925 and 1975. The years following Charles Russell's death saw a loss of 75% of the membership, with barely 4300 publishers worldwide in 1918. Yet from that small number of a century ago, Witnesses have grown into the millions with adherents in virtually every country on the globe. The cult faced down and outlasted its most determined opponents like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. It forced dictators like Cuba's Fidel Castro to finally capitulate and grant official recognition. The Chinese Communists, though still adamantly and staunchly opposed, have been unable to destroy them. So I don't think a scandal of any kind would lead to the cult's death.

That doesn't mean I think the WTS is invulnerable. History has many examples of movements that eventually collapses and came to nothing, and I think the rotten nature of this cult will lead to its demise. Its evil and corruption are beyond redemption and enough people will see that eventually. But that eventuality may well be many years away. Mormonism, founded nearly two hundred years ago, is still alive and kicking. Indeed, it is the fasted growing religion among those who profess faith in Christ and the Bible. There is dissension wthin and opposition without, but the Church carries on despite that. Nevertheless, it isn't in any danger of a catastrophic collapse. If the WTS dies swiftly, it will only be due to a combination of internal conflict within the Governing Body resulting in real and deep schisms and an awakening to the fact of its evils on the part of the rank-and-file.

Quendi

43

Keep Seeking First God's Kingdom - RC 2014 - Sunday

by OwnAccord in

a world without satan (revelation 20:2,3,7,10).

romans 12- joy in the kingdom hope.

the spirit.. demonstration: family worship.

Quendi

I haven't attended a summer convention since 2005, the year I was disfellowshipped. I looked forward to them more as social events than theocratic ones, although I did enjoy getting the new publications and found some of the talks to be interesting. One year back in the 1980s was particularly interesting for me because I sat at the information desk. Our conventions were held in Denver, Colorado which was 25 miles away from my home in Boulder. The congregation assigned to that job hated doing it so I stepped into the breach.

Most of the people stopping by were from out of state who had come to Colorado on a trip combining convention business with sight-seeing pleasure. So the questions they asked had little to do with the convention and much more to do with how to enjoy their time in both Denver and Colorado. I had a lot of fun directing folks to the many places to see, enjoy and experience in the area whether that was in Denver or in Colorado's fantastic outdoors. Word got out that people should come to the information desk to get facts and details that would make their trip enjoyable and I had many great conversations with people about their plans for their stay.

It wasn't too long before I was told that my information was untheocratic and irrelevant and to knock it off. I refused and after the second day found myself kicked off the information desk altogether. It reverted back to being a convention information desk only and I never worked it again. I told convention staff that if we really believed in a coming paradise, why would we not tell people how they could enjoy life now and get the most out of it, especially in a place as beautiful as Colorado is. The answer I got was that paradise was in the future and should not be talked about in the here and now. That answer told me that organization bigwigs no more believed in their paradise earth than they believed in the trinity or hellfire.

So this information about paradise talk is interesting. I agree that the organization is using it as a way of keeping older witnesses in the fold. But once this generation is gone, what then? I have to wonder seeing how Witness theology is being radically tansformed nowadays.

Quendi

33

Would You Become A JW Again If Local Congregations Could Become Independent?

by Space Madness in

jw
friends

for those who still believe in god, if local congregations could break away from the watchtower would you consider becoming a witness again.

this would mean no more governing body, circuit overseers, watchtower magazines, and each congregation could have its own "new light".

most of us left because of the control (no college, disfellowsipping) but if the watchtower was out of the picture, all of this would disappear.

Quendi

There's no way I would go back even to an autonomous, independent congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses unless they followed the path Space Madness has outlined above. But if they did so, they would no longer be Jehovah's Witnesses. As it is, I have found a spiritual community that allows me the freedom to explore my spirituality without the stifling rules and controls the WTS has imposed on its rank-and-file believers.

Quendi

69

QFR August 15, 2014 - Resurrection and Marriage

by wisdomfrombelow in

the article addressed luke 20:34-36 and now they finally admit jesus could have been referring to the heavenly resurrection.

they said "put simply, the answer is that we cannot say" which is surprising because they have something to say about everything.

perhaps all the old people who are waiting the new world as widow and widowers want to know if they have a chance to be reunited with their dead loved one.

Quendi

This latest flip-flop is just another reason I am so happy to have heeded the Bible's advice to "get out from among them and separate" myself. Thanks to everyone for their contributions to this thread. As Oubliette constantly reminds us about Jehovah's Witnesses: It's a cult!

Quendi

4

Christmas, Mother's Day etc etc..

by Mikado in

jw
friends

it's mother's day today, a lovely tradition that probably raises lots of thoughts and emotions in ex jws... i was walking around the local supermarket and remembered my family's next door neighbours, who were very intellectually disabled.. in hindsight they probably weren't able to look after themselves, as they lived in absolute squalor.. they didn't have two coins to rub together, yet they went to the effort to buy my family a card and get them a small gift.. i was newly out, and watched in absolute shame and horror as my mother said, in a very superior manner " we don't celebrate christmas", .

it's something i think of often with shame... i too was that superior... to my shame..

Quendi

I resumed holiday celebrations after walking away from the organization for good in 2010. Prior to that year, I always took a tactful approach with others with respect to holidays. I always thanked others when they gave me holiday greetings and, though careful not to reply in kind, I made sure to give a response that would be appreciated.

Once I began celebrating again, I got a great deal of joy and satisfaction in doing so. My father had died in 1991 and I never gave him a birthday or Father's Day gift or greeting once I became a Witness. I am glad that I corrected that mistake with my mother before she died in November of last year, celebrating Mother's Day and her birthday as well as the other holidays. Now I look forward to birthdays, Thanksgiving and Christmas, enjoying them with both family and friends. I'll be sending Mother's Day greetings to my married sister tomorrow, something I'm sure she will enjoy. And despite their denials, I believe that many Witnesses secretly wish they could do the same. Some must be asking themselves what kind of religion would forbid its members to show love, honor and respect to their mothers? Or why would its leaders twist and pervert scriptures to deny love and joy that are a natural part of human existence unless, as we've discussed elsewhere in this space, it is to keep iron-clad control over other believers?

Quendi

21

The Cat out of the Bag: the story of the release of the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION

by Terry in

when jehovah's witnesses began distributing door to door the new world translation beginning in the early 1950's a firestorm of protest broke out in mainstream churches.

the alarm cry was "they've changed the bible to fit their own crooked teachings!".

you can imagine the discord as church members tried to figure out how jehovah's witnesses could prove by reading from the nwt the king james version was full of omissions and errors and outright fraud concerning, for instance, the trinity doctrine or the name of god!!.

Quendi

A most interesting thread. Thanks for sharing, Terry.

Quendi