Posts by aqwsed12345

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228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345
@Duran
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus Christ is identical to Michael the Archangel—a created being, albeit the greatest of all angels. But this claim collapses under the weight of Scripture itself, especially when we examine Psalm 89:6 and Hebrews 1:3 (both from their own New World Translation).
Let’s begin with Psalm 89:6 (NWT):
“For who in the skies can compare to Jehovah? Who among the sons of God is like Jehovah?”
This is a rhetorical question, and its answer is clear: no one. Not a single angel—none of the “sons of God”—can be compared to Jehovah. The text makes an emphatic and exclusive claim: Jehovah is utterly incomparable to even the highest angelic beings, including Michael.
Now contrast that with how Hebrews 1:3 describes the Son:
“He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being…” (NWT)
The Greek word translated "exact representation" is charaktēr, which in ancient usage referred to the precise imprint, as with a stamp on a coin. This means that the Son is not merely like God in some vague or representative way, but is the perfect expression of God’s very being (hypostasis in Greek).
But let’s stop and ask the obvious question:
If “no one in the heavens” is even comparable to Jehovah (Psalm 89:6), how could Jesus be “the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3) unless He is of the same divine nature?
Michael the Archangel, as an exalted creature, falls squarely under the category of “sons of God” in Psalm 89. And Psalm 89 insists that no such being can compare to Jehovah. Yet Hebrews says the Son is not just comparable to Jehovah—He’s the exact imprint of Him.
This poses an inescapable dilemma for Jehovah’s Witness theology:
- If Jesus is Michael, then He cannot be the exact representation of God’s being, because Psalm 89 rules that out.
- But if Jesus is the exact representation of God’s being, then He cannot be Michael, because Michael is not comparable to Jehovah.
Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot have it both ways. They must either:
1. Deny the Bible’s plain teaching in Hebrews 1:3,
  or
2. Accept that the Son is not a created angel, but shares in the very nature of Jehovah God Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 is not compatible with the claim that Jesus is Michael. It is, however, fully compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity.
Your reply is not so much a biblical objection as it is an emotional caricature rooted in a misunderstanding of divine providence, creaturely nature, and the economy of salvation. While your tone implies concern for divine fairness or consistency, your theology collapses under the weight of its own contradictions—precisely because it misunderstands the nature of God, of creation, and of the Incarnation.
First, you presume that it would somehow be a flaw or “failure” on God’s part that none of his creatures, angelic or human, could serve as the sufficient ransom for mankind. But that is not a defect in creation; it is a testimony to the infinite holiness and justice of God and the real difference between Creator and creature. Even the highest of angels—perfect as they are in their created nature—remain finite. God alone is infinite. The ransom required to bridge the chasm of sin, which is an offense against the infinite dignity of God, must be of infinite value. Lex talionis, the law of proportionate justice, demands that the payment be commensurate with the offense. No finite being—angel or man—could ever offer to God a sacrifice of infinite worth. That is not a failure of God’s craftsmanship. That is simply metaphysical reality.
This is why only God himself, becoming man, could offer a sufficient sacrifice. Not because God "couldn't trust" his creations, but because no creature is God. The dignity of the satisfaction must correspond to the dignity of the person offended. This is why the Incarnation was not a last resort, but the most perfect expression of divine love and wisdom. Far from being a Plan B, the sending of the Son was God's will from eternity, as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).
You attempt to mock the doctrine of the Incarnation by presenting it as if God split himself or “used himself as his own son.” But this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Trinitarian theology. We do not teach that the Father became the Son, nor that God turned into Jesus. That would be modalism, a heresy the Catholic Church has always rejected. Rather, the eternal Word, who is the only-begotten Son of the Father, fully God by nature, assumed a human nature. He did not cease being God, nor did the divine nature change. What happened was a union of two natures—divine and human—in the one divine Person of the Son. This is the hypostatic union, not a confusion of persons or essence.
You say, “So he couldn’t use an angel?” No, because no angel is God. An angel could not pay the debt of mankind’s sin. Nor could an angel bridge the ontological gap between God and man. The Incarnation is not about “trust.” It’s about who is capable of bearing infinite justice and offering infinite love. Only God can redeem man, because only God is the source of life, and only He can restore what was eternally lost.
Your attempt to paint God as unjust for not enthroning angels ignores the fact that Scripture itself explains why glorified humans—not angels—are raised to rule with Christ. The Letter to the Hebrews says explicitly that it is not to angels that God subjected the world to come, but to the Son made man, the new Adam (Heb 2:5–9). Why? Because Christ is not just God, He is man—true man, the Head of a redeemed humanity. Through His obedience unto death, He undoes the disobedience of Adam (Rom 5:19). This is what makes it fitting that humans, not angels, are co-heirs with Him. You are offended at the glorification of humanity, but the scandal is not injustice—it’s grace.
Moreover, you invert the entire logic of divine condescension and humility by interpreting it as a failure. In Christian theology, the Son “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,” but humbled himself (Phil 2:6–8). You twist this into an accusation, but the Scriptures present it as the supreme revelation of God’s love. The humility of God in becoming man is not proof of divine desperation—it is the glory of divine generosity. That is what we worship.
Finally, your anthropomorphic picture of God as needing trustworthy subordinates whom He "can rely on" is not the God of the Bible. God does not need angels or men. He is not wringing His hands in heaven, wondering whom He can trust. He is not a disappointed engineer lamenting the imperfections of His designs. He is a sovereign Lord who, in His omniscience and love, foreknew the fall of angels and men and still chose to create, redeem, and glorify according to His perfect will. To call Him a failure for the disobedience of creatures is to blame the sun for the shadows.
You deny that Jesus is of the same divine essence as the Father. And yet Scripture speaks differently. John 1:1 says the Logos was God, not merely “a god.” Hebrews 1 says the Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of His being. Colossians 1 says all things were created through Him and for Him. Thomas, seeing the risen Christ, adresses Christ as “My Lord and my God!” and Jesus does not rebuke him. You can keep insisting that this is all “just a title,” but that’s not exegesis—that’s eisegesis. The Scriptures present the Son as truly God, eternally begotten, one in essence with the Father, and worthy of worship.
You reject this because your theology cannot accept mystery. But the Church has never claimed to explain away the Trinity—it confesses it, because this is how God has revealed Himself. Not as a lonely monad, nor as a solitary monarch, but as eternal communion: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—one God, three persons, perfect in love and unity of essence.
You mock what you do not understand. But what you call failure, we call kenosis—the self-giving of divine love. What you call inconsistency, we call mercy. What you call contradiction, we call mystery, revealed not by human logic but by the God who is love.
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Your argument rests on several interpretive missteps, the most fundamental of which is a category error: you collapse grammatical distinction into ontological division, failing to grasp the theological depth of what Scripture reveals about the unity of God and the distinction of persons within the Trinity.
Let’s begin with your reading of John 17:21–23, where Jesus prays that his disciples “may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you.” (The NWT's rendering “in union with” is a simple mistranslations.) You treat this passage as though it neutralizes any claim of ontological unity between the Father and the Son. But this confuses likeness of relationship with equality of nature. When Jesus prays for believers to be “one,” he clearly desires moral, spiritual, and ecclesial unity—rooted in love and truth, mediated by grace. But nowhere does Scripture suggest that believers will share in the divine nature by nature itself. Rather, we become “partakers of the divine nature” by grace (2 Peter 1:4), not by essence. You cite John 17 as though it equates the unity of believers with the unity of Father and Son in the same sense—but this is a false equivalence. In reality, Christ is using a familiar rabbinic teaching technique: a kal va-chomer argument, where the lesser (disciples being one) reflects, but never exhausts or equals, the greater (the essential unity of divine persons). The divine unity is not a moral alliance. It is a shared essence (ousia), something no creature can attain.
This is why John 10:30—“I and the Father are one”—uses the neuter form hen, not the masculine heis. Jesus does not claim they are the same person, but that they are one thing, one essence. Your appeal to the disciples’ unity proves nothing against this because their unity is by grace; the unity of Father and Son is by nature. Creatures are said to be one by likeness of will or operation, not by nature; whereas the Father and the Son are one in being, essence, and power.

The Watchtower Society, referring to John 17:11, seeks to weaken the meaning of John 10:30 (“I and the Father are one”) and claims that the unity of the Father and the Son would be solely the same as the unity existing among the believers. In this verse, Jesus asks the Father that the disciples “may be one,” meaning that unity of conviction and endeavor—after the model of the unity of the divine persons—should bind them together. That is, this unity serves as a model, but it does not mean that Christian unity is exhausted in this way, just as the unity of the divine persons is not merely some kind of “unity of will.” Rather, the Father and the Son have one and the same divine being and nature.
Let us take as a basis this statement: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect!” (Mt 5:48). If we wished to interpret this verse with the same logic as the passage in question, then we would conclude that the perfection of the Heavenly Father is attainable for man. Since this is not possible, it must be interpreted in the same way as the other: both the perfection of the Heavenly Father and the unity between the Father and the Son serve as goals and models before us, toward which we can only converge, but never fully attain as humans. Neither implies that such a degree of perfection or unity is actually attainable.
In the High Priestly Prayer, certain traits of this essential unity are reflected in the loving relationship among Christians as well, but this does not mean that every element of the Father-Son relationship also appears there. The unity of Christians with one another cannot, for example, include the transmission of supernatural life to one another, or the offering of an atoning sacrifice to the Father. Instead, they inherit the unity of the Father and the Son in this way: whoever belongs to the Son also belongs to the Father (Jn 17:10). As the Father loves the Son, so the Son loves his followers as well (17:23). Where the Son is, his followers will also be (v. 24).
This interpretation might rely on the sectarian, literalistic, formal-logical interpretation of the following phrase when Jesus says in his prayer: “that they may be one, as we are one” (i.e., he, Jesus, with the Father). However, based on the vocabulary of Scripture, the words “as,” “like,” “just as,” and “so” do not necessarily imply equivalence, but rather serve as a reference point, pattern or model: they suggest a certain similarity, analogy between the unity of the divine persons and the unity of God’s children lived in truth and love. It is enough to cite as an example the biblical statement: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect!” (Mt 5:48). Clearly, we will not interpret this statement in the same way the Watchtower wishes to force the text of the High Priestly Prayer—namely, as if Jesus were calling for the achievement of the absolute perfection of the Father God, which is of course conceptually impossible for a creature. It must be interpreted in the same way as the High Priestly Prayer: the perfection of the Father God is the ideal model of perfection, which must shine before our eyes as an ultimately unattainable goal.
This word, “one,” can be understood by believers as referring to unity of love in grace, and by the divine persons as unity in identity of nature, just as the Truth says elsewhere: “Be... perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Mt 5:48), as if stating more tangibly, “be perfect” in the perfection of grace, just as “your heavenly Father is perfect” in the perfection of his nature—each in its own way: since between the Creator and the creature no such similarity can be marked out without also acknowledging the far greater differences that exist between them.
Now regarding Revelation 22:3. You object to the Trinitarian interpretation of the singular pronoun “him” referring to both “God and the Lamb,” claiming instead that they are seated on separate thrones. But this simply contradicts the text. Revelation 22:1 speaks of the singular “throne of God and of the Lamb.” Not two thrones—one. There is no mention of Christ awaiting a separate throne in the New Jerusalem. Revelation’s vision is one of shared glory and shared rule. You cite Revelation 3:21 and Matthew 25:31, but these reference stages of redemptive history—not eternal ontological hierarchy. In Revelation 3:21, Jesus says, “I also conquered and sat down with my Father on His throne.” This is not anticipation of a later upgrade in thrones; it is fulfillment of Psalm 110:1, where the Messiah is seated at God's right hand. The very sharing of God’s throne is the sign of Christ’s divinity—not its negation. In the Old Testament, no one sat on God’s throne but God Himself. In the New Testament, the Lamb does—because He is of the same divine nature.
The ambiguity of the pronoun “him” in Revelation 22:3 is only ambiguous to those determined to separate what Scripture unites. Grammatical proximity places “the Lamb” as the likely antecedent. But context reveals theological unity. The one throne (22:1), the one reign (11:15), and the one temple (21:22)—all refer to “God and the Lamb.” The singular verb latreuō (“they will serve him”) is used throughout the LXX for cultic worship of YHWH alone. That this term is now applied to the Lamb alongside God reveals that Christ is the object of divine worship. This would be blasphemy—unless He is God. The same is true of Revelation 5:13–14, where the Lamb receives the same glory, honor, and worship as the One on the throne. In Jewish monotheism, such worship cannot be distributed. Either Jesus is a divine person of the one God, or John is promoting idolatry.
You argue that Jesus is worshipped merely as God’s appointed king. But this misses the deeper point of Philippians 2:6–11. Paul quotes Isaiah 45:23—where YHWH declares, “To me every knee shall bow”—and applies it to Jesus. The name given to Jesus is not just “Jesus,” but the divine title “Lord” (Kyrios), used consistently in the LXX for YHWH. Paul is not describing mere delegated authority; he is proclaiming divine identity. And lest we think this is a promotion for good behavior, the hymn begins with the pre-existent divine Son who, “being in the morphḗ of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped,” but emptied Himself in humility. His exaltation is the unveiling of His divine status—not its reward.
Finally, your entire argument rests on the idea that Jesus cannot be God because He is distinct from the Father. But this is the very heart of Trinitarian theology. Jesus is not the Father. That is not a denial of divinity—it is an affirmation of personal distinction. The doctrine of the Trinity confesses one divine essence (ousia) subsisting in three persons (hypostaseis). The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit—but each is fully God, not as parts, not as manifestations, but as subsisting relations within the one divine being. The thrones of God and the Lamb are one because the essence is one. The worship directed to both is one because the glory is one.
You cite the biblical text but interpret it through a framework that cannot account for the full depth of its claims. You deny the Trinity not because the text denies it, but because your theology demands it. But the Church—guided by the Spirit, illumined by the whole of Scripture, and tested in the fire of heresies ancient and modern—has always confessed: Jesus is Lord. Not merely in office, but in essence. Not as a secondary being, but as true God from true God.
That is not a philosophical addition. That is the testimony of the apostles. And it remains the faith of the Church.

@vienne
Your claim that Revelation 22:1 "disproves" the deity of Christ and exposes my reliance on “Catholic sources” rather than “Scripture alone” (practically: heretical nuda Scriptura) is not only laughably shallow but betrays a profound ignorance of both the text itself and the historical and theological structure of the Christian faith. You accuse me of quoting Scripture through “extra-biblical” lenses—yet you impose your own, deeply anti-biblical lens: namely, that of Arian reductionism. You force every verse through the narrow filter of Watchtower dogma and then scold others for not doing the same. That’s not sola Scriptura—it’s sola Watchtura.
Let’s look at Revelation 22:1, the verse you latch onto with false confidence:
“Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.”
Now stop. There is one throne here, not two. And it is not “God’s throne with the Lamb nearby.” The throne belongs jointly to “God and the Lamb.” This isn’t a matter of metaphor or poetic language. In the ancient world—and in Scripture—the throne is the definitive symbol of sovereign rule. For the Lamb to share the throne of God is not a statement of subordination, but of shared kingship, shared rule, and shared identity. If the Lamb were a mere creature or exalted archangel, this would be the very blasphemy the Book of Revelation warns against.
But you say, “The Lamb sits on the throne with God. It doesn’t say he is God.” That’s a textbook case of eisegesis—forcing your presuppositions onto the text. Because the verse also doesn’t say the Lamb is not God. And if Revelation 22:1 doesn’t state outright “Jesus is God,” then neither does it say “Jesus is not God.” The difference is that you demand an isolated proof-text in service of your ideology, while the whole context of Revelation testifies that the Lamb is worshipped, enthroned, served, and identified with the divine prerogatives of God Himself.
Let’s now read Revelation 22:3:
“The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.”
One throne. One singular pronoun. His bondservants. They will serve Him. The Greek word here is latreuō—a term used exclusively in the New Testament for the cultic, sacred service due to God alone. Never for men. Never for angels. And yet it is used here for service rendered to the singular “Him”—after naming both “God and the Lamb.”
This is devastating for your position.
You try to dodge this by claiming that the singular pronoun means the service is rendered to God alone. But Greek doesn’t work that way—not in Revelation. As many scholars, including Bauckham and Beale, have shown, John routinely uses singular pronouns and verbs to refer to both God and the Lamb together, to emphasize their unity in deity, not to deny it. He’s not sloppy with grammar—he bends it intentionally to theologically signal their unity. This is why we see the same structure in Revelation 20:6, where “priests of God and of Christ… reign with Him.” Him—singular. Same structure. Same logic. Are you going to argue Christ is excluded from the reign in that verse too? Absurd.
But let’s push even further. Who is “seen” in Revelation 22:4?
“They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.”
Whose face? Whose name? The Father’s? The Lamb’s? Scripture answers: both. Revelation 14:1 already told us:
“They had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.”
So why is Revelation 22:4 using the singular “His name”? Because the name is shared. It is the divine name—the name above every name—because the Father and the Son are one in nature, one in worship, one in glory.
And here’s what should terrify you, if you truly cared about honoring the Word of God: in Revelation 5:13, all of creation cries out,
“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
This is not two different acts of worship. It is a single doxology, offered jointly to God and the Lamb, and no one protests it. In fact, the angels and elders fall down in adoration—because the Lamb shares the same divine glory (cf. John 17:5). Meanwhile, in Revelation 19 and 22, angels refuse worship. Why? “Worship God!” But the Lamb receives it—because He is God.
You accuse me of “cut and pasting from Catholic sources.” Thank you. You’ve accidentally paid a compliment. Because the Catholic Church preserved the Trinitarian faith from being butchered by heresies like yours for nearly two millennia. Your theology didn’t come from the Bible—it came from a 19th-century religious publishing company in Brooklyn. The early Church Fathers, long before Nicea, long before Constantine, were already worshiping the Son with latreuo, already defending His full deity, already reading Revelation and confessing what you deny: that the Lamb is Lord, the Son is God, and Christ is to be served with sacred worship.
You think you’re championing “Scripture alone”? No—you’re gutting Scripture of its depth and unity, clinging to half-verses and avoiding the ones that shatter your theology. Like John 20:28, where Thomas falls before Jesus and confesses:
“My Lord and my God!”
Did Jesus correct him? No. Because it was the truth.
So no, I’m not afraid of the text of Revelation 22. I’m afraid for you—because you refuse to see what’s there. The throne is one. The worship is one. The God is one. And the Lamb who shares the throne, receives the sacred service, bears the divine name, and is worshiped by all creation—He is no creature. He is the eternal Son, consubstantial with the Father.
You don’t get to rip the Lamb from His throne and drag Him into your Arian marketplace. He reigns. And one day, you too will bow—not to an exalted angel, but to “the First and the Last,” the Alpha and the Omega, the one who was dead and is alive forevermore. The question is: will you bow in faith, or in fear?
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345

@vienne
That's laughable—because your problem is not that I don’t use Scripture. It’s that I use too much of it for your liking. You’re not interested in Scripture. You’re interested in a cherry-picked selection of verses ripped from their context, interpreted through the lens of your anti-Trinitarian ideology. And when someone brings the full weight of Scripture—Old Testament prophecy, New Testament fulfillment, apostolic testimony, and theological coherence—you recoil and start yelling "Pharisee!" as if calling names wins arguments. You're not doing sola Scriptura. You’re doing sola snippetura—cutting and pasting whatever props up your theology while closing your eyes to everything else.
You think I’m afraid of Scripture? No, friend. You’re afraid of all of Scripture. You fear what it would mean if Jesus really is who he claimed to be—the eternal Son, one in being with the Father, worthy of worship, and seated on the same throne as the Almighty (Rev 22:1). You fear the doctrine of the Trinity not because it isn’t in the Bible, but because it exposes your cheap theology as man-made reductionism.
If quoting Church Fathers and creeds makes me a “Catholic troll,” so be it. But your rejection of the historic Christian faith—shared not only by Catholics but by the early Fathers, the Reformers, and every orthodox stream of Christianity—is not bold. It’s rebellion. It’s what Paul called “another gospel,” which is no gospel at all.
So keep mocking. Call names. But don’t pretend I’m the one afraid of Scripture. I follow the Lamb who is on the same throne as the One seated on it (Rev 22:1). And one day, you, like everyone else, will bow before Him—not as a creature, not as an angel, but as “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). The only question is whether you’ll bow now in faith or later in judgment.
53
What is really Babylon the great?
by Halcon in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
for believers of god and christ, it seems that it should be obvious that babylon the great of revelation should be all religions and spiritual practices associated with the one true enemy of christ...the devil, satan, the snake etc.

essentially any group or individual practicing and promoting witchcraft, sorcery, devil worshipping etc.

all things practiced in ancient babylon (the nation presumably used as the model for the one in revelation).. or is this too simple of an explanation?.
aqwsed12345
“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons…” (Revelation 18:2)
The identity of Babylon the Great in the Book of Revelation has long intrigued and divided interpreters. To many modern readers, especially those influenced by sensationalist or literalist readings of Revelation, the answer seems obvious: Babylon must be a symbol of all false religions, cults, and explicitly satanic practices, including witchcraft and sorcery. After all, ancient Babylon was a center of idolatry, astrology, and opposition to the God of Israel—so surely, the symbolic "Babylon" must represent the same today?
While this interpretation appears plausible at first glance, Catholic tradition—especially through the lens of amillennialism and partial preterism—offers a richer, more nuanced view rooted in Scripture, history, and theology.

1. What is Amillennialism and Partial Preterism?
Before we answer who or what Babylon the Great truly is, we must first understand the interpretive lens through which the Catholic Church traditionally reads Revelation.
- Amillennialism holds that the "millennium" of Revelation 20 is not a literal future 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth, but a symbolic description of Christ’s present reign from heaven, which began at His resurrection and continues until the final judgment. This is the current Church Age.
- Partial Preterism understands much of Revelation (especially chapters 1–19) as a symbolic depiction of events that were near-future from John’s perspective, most notably the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the persecution of the early Church by the Roman Empire.
With these two tools, the Catholic interpretation avoids both extreme futurism and superficial literalism, offering instead a theologically grounded and historically conscious reading of Revelation.

2. The Symbolism of Babylon in Revelation
The term Babylon in Revelation is symbolic—not literal. Ancient Babylon had already fallen centuries before John's time, so the use of its name is clearly metaphorical. The Book of Revelation is saturated with Old Testament imagery. Just as ancient Babylon destroyed the first Jerusalem and exiled the people of God, so too Babylon the Great represents a power or system that opposes God’s covenant people in John's own day and beyond.
Key Characteristics of "Babylon the Great" in Revelation:
- She is a “great city” (Rev 17:18).
- She is "drunk with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus" (Rev 17:6).
- She commits fornication with the kings of the earth (Rev 17:2).
- She is adorned in purple and scarlet and is extremely wealthy (Rev 17:4; 18:11-19).
- Her fall brings joy to the apostles, prophets, and saints (Rev 18:20).
3. The Catholic View: Babylon as Apostate Jerusalem and Pagan Rome
Catholic biblical scholarship, drawing from early Church tradition and reinforced by contemporary research, identifies Babylon the Great as having multiple layers of meaning, both historical and spiritual.
A. Jerusalem (the Apostate City)
From a partial preterist standpoint, Babylon first points to Jerusalem, the once-holy city that rejected and crucified her Messiah (cf. Luke 13:34). Consider:
- Jesus Himself calls Jerusalem "the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her" (Matthew 23:37).
- Revelation 11:8 says the two witnesses are killed in "the great city that is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified"—clearly referring to Jerusalem.
Thus, in John's day, Babylon the Great partly represents apostate Judaism, which allied with the Roman Empire to persecute the early Church and reject the Gospel.
B. Rome (the Pagan Empire)
As Revelation progresses, especially by chapters 17–18, the image of Babylon begins to shift toward pagan Rome:
- Rome was famously built on seven hills (Rev 17:9).
- The “beast” that the woman (Babylon) rides symbolizes imperial power—Rome was the dominant beastly empire in John's day (Rev 13:1–10; 17:3).
- Rome persecuted Christians, executed Peter and Paul, and demanded emperor worship. It perfectly fits the description of a city “drunk with the blood of the saints.”
Therefore, Babylon is not merely about religion or sorcery—it is the union of corrupt spiritual authority with political tyranny. It is a symbol of any power—religious or secular—that opposes Christ and persecutes His Church.

4. Beyond the First Century: Babylon as an Ongoing Reality
According to Catholic amillennial theology, the Book of Revelation describes patterns of persecution and apostasy that recur throughout history. Babylon is not confined to ancient Jerusalem or Rome. Rather, she reappears in every age where the powers of this world rebel against God, persecute His saints, and exalt themselves in pride, luxury, and false worship.
Babylon is:
- Every corrupt religious institution that betrays God’s truth.
- Every empire or political system that suppresses human dignity and moral law.
- Every cultural force that mocks holiness and celebrates rebellion.
Thus, Babylon may appear as a false religious system, a totalitarian government, or even a decadent civilization. She is the spiritual anti-city to the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21).

5. Not Just Witchcraft and Devil Worship
You asked whether Babylon is simply all forms of sorcery, witchcraft, and devil worship. These are certainly aspects of what Babylon promotes—but reducing her to these fringe phenomena misses the deeper point. Babylon is not merely about occult practices; she is about systemic opposition to the Lamb.
In Revelation, the most dangerous evil is not the obviously demonic—but the beautiful, seductive, politically connected system that makes itself a counterfeit kingdom. Babylon intoxicates the world with her allure, luxury, and apparent power. She mimics the Church, but her foundation is built on rebellion and blood.

6. The Fall of Babylon and the Victory of the Lamb
Revelation 18 describes the sudden and catastrophic fall of Babylon, to the lament of kings and merchants who profited from her.
But in contrast, Revelation 19–22 reveals the wedding of the Lamb and the New Jerusalem—the true Bride of Christ. The faithful Church, purified through suffering, is eternally united with her Lord.
This is the hope of Catholic eschatology: not a future earthly millennium, but a present spiritual reign of Christ, and a future new heaven and new earth, where God will dwell with His people forever (Revelation 21:3-4).

Conclusion
Babylon the Great is not merely a symbol of witchcraft or the occult. It is a multifaceted, prophetic image representing any worldly power—religious, political, or cultural—that exalts itself against God, corrupts the nations, and persecutes the faithful.
The Catholic amillennial and partial preterist perspective offers a profound theological vision: Babylon has already fallen in history, continues to manifest in different ways today, and will finally be judged at the end of the age when Christ returns in glory.
Until then, Christians are called to come out of Babylon (Revelation 18:4)—to resist her seductions, to remain faithful to Christ, and to hope not in earthly empires, but in the heavenly city to come.
“For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.” (Hebrews 13:14)

Deo gratias.
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Your frustration seems to stem from the fact that I answer from the standpoint of the doctrine of the Trinity, yet you repeatedly present arguments whose only force rests on rejecting that very doctrine. You can say “Trinity talk aside,” but if your entire point is to make theological distinctions between Jesus and the Father, then you're already engaging with the very essence of what Trinitarian theology addresses. You are already trying to interpret Scripture with a Unitarian/Arian lens while demanding a Trinitarian not respond with Trinitarian theology—as though reasoned theology should be suspended in favor of your preferred framework. That is not how dialogue works, nor how theology proceeds.
You object that I mention “ontological separation” between Jesus and the Father, while you claim your only interest was in discussing Revelation 3:21 and the identity of those who will sit on the throne. But your own framing presupposes two different divine beings with different names, different thrones, and ultimately different statuses in the divine order. So yes—ontological separation is exactly what you’re implying, whether you admit it or not. The issue is not that I’ve misunderstood your grammar, but that you don’t understand how language interacts with theology. And in particular, you have no room for mystery—no concept of how Scripture can reveal both distinction and unity in God.
You emphasize the two names—YHWH and Yehoshua—as though naming proves essence. But this is a shallow and reductionist reading of Scripture. Names in the Bible are not bare labels—they reveal character, mission, and divine presence. “Yehoshua” literally means “YHWH saves.” That name is not meant to distance the Son from YHWH, but to identify him as the manifestation of YHWH’s saving power. You quote John 1:29: “Behold the Lamb of God.” Yes—of course the Lamb is of God. But Trinitarian theology never teaches that the Son is the same person as the Father. What it teaches is that the Son, though distinct in person, shares fully in the divine nature of the Father. You cite that verse as though it disproves the Trinity, when in fact it fits perfectly within its framework.
Your continued appeal to Revelation 3:21 fails for the same reason. You want to emphasize that Jesus says, “I sat down with my Father on his throne,” as though this proves that Jesus is not God. But what you ignore—every single time—is the broader theological meaning of that shared throne. The Book of Revelation never says there are two thrones. Revelation 22:1 speaks of the throne (singular) “of God and of the Lamb.” There is only one throne, and it is shared. This is not Trinitarian spin. It is exegesis. The Lamb shares in the throne not merely as a servant or creature, but as one who is worshipped alongside the Father (Revelation 5:13–14). The vision is not of a divine monarch and a created assistant. It is of co-regency in divine glory.
Furthermore, your dichotomy between “Jehovah” and “Jehoshua” is theologically incoherent. You say, “The names are different, therefore the persons must be different.” But that presumes that divine essence is defined by nomenclature. It’s as though because you call God the Father “Jehovah” and call the Son “Jesus,” they cannot both be God. That is absurd. Isaiah 9:6 says the Messiah will be called “Mighty God, Everlasting Father.” You quote Scripture to prove that the Father and Son are distinct—which no Christian denies—but then you refuse to hear the full voice of Scripture when it attributes the very identity and worship of YHWH to Jesus. In Philippians 2, Paul quotes Isaiah 45:23—where YHWH says every knee will bow to him—and applies it to Jesus, who has been given “the Name that is above every name.” That name is not merely “Jesus.” It is the divine title “Lord” (Kyrios), the Greek rendering of YHWH in the Septuagint. To confess “Jesus is Lord” is to proclaim him as YHWH in person.
Your repeated statements that “Yehoshua is not Jehovah” rely on misreading a fundamental point: that the New Testament authors intentionally identify Jesus with the Lord of the Old Testament. Hebrews 1:10–12 quotes Psalm 102, a passage about YHWH, and says it applies to the Son. John 12:41 says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus—referring to Isaiah 6, where the prophet sees the glory of YHWH seated on his throne. These are not slips or poetic metaphors. They are theological affirmations rooted in the earliest Christian conviction that Jesus is not merely God’s agent, but God incarnate.
You also cite Romans 10:9, where Paul says we must confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. But again, this is not a problem for Trinitarians. The Son, in his humanity, was raised by the power of the Father—and indeed, by his own power (John 10:17–18). That he died does not negate his divinity. He died in his assumed human nature, not in his divine essence. God the Son cannot die in his divine nature, because God is eternal and immortal. That’s why the Incarnation matters: the eternal Word became flesh, not by ceasing to be God, but by taking on human nature.
Let’s be clear: Christians confess one God in three persons, not three gods. The man Jesus can speak to the Father as “my God” (John 20:17) without that implying inferiority in nature. The Son speaks from his humanity—and even in his glorified state continues to relate to the Father as the Son. If you want to say this proves he isn’t divine, then you’ll need to explain why the New Testament repeatedly ascribes divine honors, attributes, and titles to him—worship, judgment, omniscience, creation itself.
You want to strip the Son of his divinity based on relational language. But relational language is not ontological language. The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, the Spirit is the Spirit—yet the three are one in divine essence. That is what the Christian Church has always confessed, long before “Rome” became your scapegoat.
In the end, your argument is not with me. It is with the text of Scripture itself, which refuses to conform to the narrow categories you try to impose. The early Christians didn’t invent the Trinity—they were compelled by the witness of Scripture to confess it. That’s why you can’t erase the Son’s divine status by pointing to distinctions of person. Those are the very foundations of Trinitarian faith.
So yes—Jesus speaks of “his Father.” That does not mean he is not God. It means he is not the Father. But he is the Son of God, begotten from eternity, consubstantial with the Father, and Lord of all. And to him every knee shall bow—not as an honored servant, but as the living God.
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Thank you for raising the question again with greater clarity—although it’s unfortunate that you continue to couch your remarks in unnecessary mockery rather than genuine theological dialogue. Still, I’ll engage your point sincerely and respectfully, because the question of divine identity matters deeply. You're asking whether, in Revelation 3:21, we should interpret the pronouns “I,” “me,” and “my” as referring to Jesus, and “his” and “his throne” as referring to YHWH God. You’re satisfied that I affirmed the grammar, and you take that as a concession that there are two separate beings with separate thrones and identities. But what you’re missing is the theological content behind this grammatical distinction, which is where your argument falls apart.
Yes, Jesus is speaking in the first person in Revelation 3:21. He says, “I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” That’s straightforward on the surface. But if you suppose this proves ontological separation between Jesus and the Father—if you assume this distinction in person means Jesus is not divine—then you’re importing an a priori assumption that only the Father is Jehovah. That assumption is not derived from the text but from Watchtower doctrine. It’s part of what we call JW theological “Newspeak,” where the divine name “Jehovah” is treated as exclusive to the Father, while the Son must be something other—lesser, created, angelic. This linguistic framing is loaded, not neutral.
Let’s be very clear: Trinitarian theology never claims the Son is the same person as the Father. We affirm distinction of persons. But distinction of person is not distinction of essence. In Revelation 3:21, Jesus, as the exalted Son, speaks from the vantage of his glorified human nature, which he assumed in the Incarnation. As true man, he conquered through obedience unto death (Philippians 2:8), and he is now enthroned at the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 1:3; Psalm 110:1). Yet that same enthronement is shared: in Revelation 22:1, there is one throne—the throne of God and of the Lamb—not two thrones for two gods. This is not a slip of grammar. It is a theological affirmation that God and the Lamb rule as one, in shared divine majesty. The singular throne implies unity of essence.
So yes, the "I" in Revelation 3:21 refers to Jesus, and “his” refers to the Father. But what you’re assuming—falsely—is that this linguistic distinction must mean Jesus is not divine. That’s where your reasoning collapses. By your logic, if two persons are distinct, then they must have different natures, different essences. But this is not true even in the realm of human beings, much less in Trinitarian theology. A father and son are different persons but share the same nature. When the New Testament reveals that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God—and yet God is one—this is not a contradiction; it is a revelation of God’s tri-personal nature.
Moreover, the divine name “Jehovah” or “Yahweh” is not restricted in Scripture to the Father. That is a Watchtower invention. In the New Testament, texts that originally referred to YHWH in the Old Testament are often applied to Jesus. Philippians 2:10–11 quotes Isaiah 45:23, where YHWH says, “To me every knee shall bow,” and applies it to Jesus: “every knee will bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This is not giving Jesus honor “next to” Jehovah. It’s assigning to Jesus the divine prerogative and worship due to YHWH alone. Similarly, in John 12:41, we are told that Isaiah “saw His glory and spoke of Him.” This refers to Isaiah 6, where Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH. John tells us that Isaiah was seeing Jesus.
You speak of Jesus and Jehovah as if they are mutually exclusive. But that dichotomy is foreign to Scripture. Jesus is not a second god beside Jehovah. He is Jehovah revealed in the flesh. The Tetragrammaton does not name a single person—it names the divine being, the essence of God, in which Father, Son, and Holy Spirit subsist. So when we say “Jesus is Jehovah,” we are not saying “Jesus is the Father.” That would be a heresy known as modalism. We are saying Jesus shares the divine essence—He is YHWH in person as the eternal Son.
Your reduction of identity to pronouns ignores this reality. Yes, Jesus distinguishes himself from the Father. He— as a man—prays to Him, obeys Him, sits at His right hand. These distinctions are not evidence against the Trinity—they are part of it. The early Church didn’t "invent" this framework; it recognized it in the pattern of Scripture. You are offended that I bring in Trinitarian theology—but I must, because the grammar you appeal to cannot be understood apart from it.
To sum up: I agreed grammatically that Jesus refers to “I” and the Father to “his.” But I do not agree with your assumption that this disproves the Trinity or Christ’s deity. That assumption is not found in the grammar—it is imported from a theology that isolates “Jehovah” to the Father alone. When Jesus sits with the Father on His throne, He is not sitting as an ontologically subordinate angel. He is reigning as the exalted Lord, the divine Son, who shares the Father’s glory (John 17:5) and essence (Hebrews 1:3). Revelation 3:21 is not a problem for Trinitarians—it is a witness to Christ’s glorified humanity and shared divine rule.
Your argument is not grammatical. It is theological. And as such, it must be tested against the whole counsel of Scripture—not against a narrow Watchtower lexicon. Jesus is not merely beside Jehovah. He is “Emmanuel”—God with us.
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Your latest question presents a false dilemma wrapped in a superficial agreement. While we may agree on the transliterations of the Hebrew names—Yehoshua (יהושע) as “Jesus” and Yehovah (יהוה) as “Jehovah” or “Yahweh”—your conclusion misrepresents both Scripture and Christian theology by implying that the grammatical distinction between “I” and “my Father” must entail a difference in essence or deity. Let me explain clearly, without deflection.
Yes, Jesus says, “I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on His throne” (Revelation 3:21). But you are reading this with an anthropomorphic and anti-Trinitarian lens that treats God as a unipersonal being. Your interpretation ignores the very point of the Incarnation: that the eternal Word (who is God) took on human nature and, in that nature, distinguishes Himself in person from the Father—without ceasing to be God.
You ask whether the pronoun “I” refers to Yehoshua (Jesus) and “his” refers to Jehovah. Grammatically, yes—those are the subjects being distinguished. But your error lies in equating grammatical distinction with ontological separation. Jesus, speaking as the Son, addresses the Father as distinct in person but not in essence. This is the consistent testimony of the New Testament: that the Son is not the Father, but shares the same divine nature.
This is not speculation—it is the teaching of Scripture. Jesus says, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), not meaning one person, but one being (hen in Greek, not heis). He also says, “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Yet He prays to the Father, submits to the Father, and calls Him “My God” (John 20:17) precisely because He has taken on human nature. In Revelation 3:21, Jesus speaks from that glorified humanity which shares the divine throne but also preserves the distinction of persons.
Moreover, in Revelation 22:1, the throne is not divided between two separate gods, but described as the “throne of God and of the Lamb”—one throne, one reign, one essence. The singular throne signifies unity, not polytheism. That is why throughout Revelation, the Lamb receives the worship due to God alone (Revelation 5:13–14). This is not idolatry—it is divine revelation.
Your final question seeks to reduce divine identity to mere pronouns, but Scripture reveals a God who is tri-personal. The Son prays to the Father and distinguishes Himself from the Father because He is not the Father. But He is no less Jehovah. That is the mystery and beauty of the Trinity: not confusion, not contradiction, but the unity of one divine nature shared eternally by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
So no, it is not “Jehoshua = Jesus” and “Jehovah = a separate being.” Rather:
Jehoshua is the Incarnate Word—Yahweh in the flesh.
And the Father is Yahweh.
And the Spirit is Yahweh.
Not three Gods, but one. That is what the Scriptures reveal, and that is what Christians confess.
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345
@Duran
Let’s answer your question clearly and directly, without being distracted by the abuse you included, which only reveals your inability to engage civilly with theological dialogue.
1. What is the Hebrew name (3068) יהוה in English, and who does it represent in Exodus 3:15?
The Tetragrammaton יהוה is traditionally rendered in English as Yahweh or, in its older English form, Jehovah. It represents the one true God—the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as the text explicitly states. It is the divine name by which God identifies Himself to Moses at the burning bush. So yes, this name clearly refers to the eternal God.
2. What is the Hebrew name (3091) יהושע in English, which corresponds to the Greek name (2424) Ἰησοῦς, and who does it represent in Luke 1:31?
The name יהושע (Yehoshua) is the original Hebrew form of the name rendered in Greek as Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), and in English as Jesus. The name means “Yahweh is salvation” or “Yahweh saves.” In the context of Luke 1:31, this name is given by divine command: “You shall name him Jesus.” The one it refers to is Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God—the second Person of the Trinity, who became man for the salvation of mankind.
Now, while you were simply “asking questions,” your implication was clear: that these are two distinct individuals with distinct identities and names—Yahweh and Jesus (the Son), and thus they must be separate gods or beings. But here’s the theological problem with that suggestion.
The Christian faith, grounded in Scripture, teaches that the one God of Israel, YHWH, reveals Himself fully in Jesus Christ. The New Testament does not present Jesus as separate from YHWH—but as the very incarnation of the same divine being revealed in the Old Testament. This is why the apostle Paul, in Philippians 2:9–11, says that Jesus is given the name above every name, and that “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This is a direct quotation of Isaiah 45:23, where YHWH says that every knee will bow to Him. In other words, Paul is identifying Jesus with YHWH—not merely giving him a high title, but ascribing to him the worship and identity that belong to YHWH alone.
Moreover, Hebrews 1:10 applies Psalm 102—a psalm addressed to YHWH—directly to the Son, calling Him the one who “laid the foundations of the earth.” John 1:1 likewise affirms that the Word (who becomes flesh in verse 14) was God and was “in the beginning with God.” And in John 8:58, Jesus says plainly, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” using the very divine identifier God used in Exodus 3:14.
So while יהוה in Exodus refers to God—whom we call the Father—we must not pretend that this name excludes the Son. Jesus bears the very name of God because He is God. That’s why the name “Yehoshua” (Yahweh saves) is not a name in contrast to Yahweh, but a name that reveals Yahweh’s saving action in the person of Jesus. In Isaiah 43:11, God says, “I, even I, am YHWH, and beside me there is no savior.” Yet in Luke 2:11, Jesus is announced as the Savior—again, this is not a contradiction unless one denies that Jesus shares in the divine identity.
You asked who these names refer to. I’ve told you plainly:
- YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) refers to the one true God, revealed in the Old Testament—especially to Israel—and in the New Testament, fully revealed in the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
- Yehoshua (Jesus) refers to the incarnate Word, the Son of God, who is Yahweh in the flesh. His name means “Yahweh saves,” and He is the very embodiment of that truth.
You cannot pit the name Yahweh against the name Jesus, because Scripture shows they belong to the same divine reality. To divide them is to misunderstand the very unity of God’s revelation. The Father is Yahweh. The Son is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. One God, three Persons—not confusion, not separation, but the mystery of the Trinity revealed in Jesus Christ.
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Your response attempts to establish a rigid distinction between the Hebrew names YHWH (יהוה, Strong’s 3068) and Yehoshua (יהושע, Strong’s 3091), linking them respectively to the Father and to the Son, and presuming that these names function as identifiers in a literal, phonetic sense. This framing, however, fails to appreciate the theological and literary richness of how "name" is used in Scripture, especially within Trinitarian theology and the apocalyptic context of Revelation.
First, the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (YHWH) revealed in Exodus 3:15 is indeed the divine name by which God identifies Himself to Moses and Israel. Yet even in the Old Testament, “name” is more than a vocal sound—it embodies God's revealed character, presence, authority, and covenantal faithfulness. To “remember His name” means to worship, invoke, trust, and submit to His lordship. The divine name signifies God’s self-revelation, but God is not confined to phonetic expression. The notion that correct vocalization of "YHWH" is required for right worship was foreign to the biblical prophets, who were far more concerned with faithfulness to the covenant than with linguistic formality. This understanding carries over into the New Testament, where the emphasis is on the revelation of the divine name in the person of Jesus Christ.
The second part of the argument connects the Hebrew name Yehoshua (Joshua) to the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), asserting a clear distinction in personal identity. It is true that Jesus’ human name, “Yeshua” or “Yehoshua,” meaning “YHWH saves,” links His earthly identity to Israel’s hope in God’s deliverance. But in Trinitarian theology, the Son is not merely the bearer of a name that references God—He is Himself the full revelation of the divine name. Jesus explicitly says in John 17:6, “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me.” He does not mean that He taught them how to pronounce YHWH; He means He made known the very essence and will of the Father. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the exact imprint of His nature (Hebrews 1:3). To know Jesus is to know the Father (John 14:7–10).
Moreover, when Revelation 14:1 speaks of the name of the Lamb and of His Father written on the foreheads of the 144,000, it does not distinguish between two divine identities, as if the Son were not God. Rather, it expresses shared divine authority and ownership. Just as the Father’s throne is also “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Revelation 22:1, 3), so too the name of the Father and the Lamb on the elect signifies unity of essence and rule. Within Trinitarian theology, the name of the Father is not exclusive of the Son, because the Son is consubstantial with the Father (John 10:30). When believers bear the name of God, they are marked as belonging to the Triune God, not to one person of the Trinity alone.
Finally, my original point regarding the Holy Spirit remains sound. Scripture identifies the Spirit as the one who seals the elect (Ephesians 1:13–14; Revelation 7:2–4). The Spirit does not need to have His name written externally on the believer’s forehead, because He dwells within them (Romans 8:9). His presence is the internal mark of divine ownership and transformation. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and glorifies both—not Himself (John 16:13–14). Thus, the absence of a “name of the Spirit” written on the forehead is entirely consistent with His divine role as the bond of love within the Trinity and the seal of divine life in the believer.
In conclusion, your argument reduces “name” to a linguistic tag, missing its deeper biblical and theological significance. The “name” in Revelation is not about phonetic precision or etymological trivia—it is about participation in the life of the Triune God. The Lamb and the Father share one name because they share one divine nature. The Spirit’s seal is not neglected; it is the means by which this name is written on the faithful. Thus, the Trinitarian reading is not only consistent with the biblical text—it is the only one that does justice to the richness of the Christian revelation.
228
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.
aqwsed12345

@Duran
You asked why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in John 5:22–23, where Jesus says that the Father “judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” This passage focuses on the particular relationship between the Father and the Son in the economy of salvation, specifically concerning divine judgment and the Son’s glorification. The fact that the Holy Spirit is not named in this specific text does not imply His inferiority or non-divinity. Scripture often highlights one or two Persons of the Trinity depending on the subject at hand—such as the Incarnation or the sending of the Son—without implying that the third Person is absent or less divine. For example, in Matthew 11:27, Jesus says, “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son,” without mentioning the Holy Spirit—but this does not mean the Spirit lacks divine knowledge. Rather, Scripture speaks in a way that reveals the Persons in their appropriate missions.
As to the question of how one honors the Father and the Son: we honor the Father by worshipping Him in spirit and truth, obeying His commandments, and recognizing Him as Creator and source of all being (cf. John 4:23–24). We honor the Son by believing in Him as the one sent by the Father, by acknowledging Him as Lord and Savior, and by giving Him the same worship and glory due to the Father, as the early Christians did (cf. Philippians 2:10–11). We also honor the Son liturgically—every time the Church celebrates the Eucharist, prays the Gloria, or concludes prayers “through Christ our Lord,” we are offering true honor.
You then quoted Revelation 14:1 regarding the 144,000 who have the name of the Lamb and of His Father written on their foreheads. You asked: what is the Lamb’s name, and what is the Father’s name? Symbolically, the “name” represents consecration, belonging, and identity—not merely phonetic labeling. In apocalyptic literature like Revelation, the “name” refers to divine ownership and covenantal relationship. The fact that both the Lamb and the Father are named together and written upon the faithful symbolizes their full union with God in Christ, who is the Lamb. The Holy Spirit, though not explicitly named in that particular verse, is the one who seals the faithful, as seen elsewhere in Revelation (7:2–4) and in Ephesians 1:13. The Spirit is the bond of that sealing, and thus is the active agent who inscribes the name of the Father and the Son on the elect—not needing His own name to be written, because He is the one who writes.
For example, regarding Stephen’s vision in Acts 7, the objection is often raised that the Holy Spirit is not “seen,” and therefore is not a divine Person. But this misses the point of the passage. Luke clearly says that Stephen was “full of the Holy Spirit” when he saw the vision of Christ at the right hand of God. In other words, the Holy Spirit is the one who revealed the vision. The Holy Spirit is not “seen” because His role is to reveal the Son and glorify Him (cf. John 16:14), not to manifest Himself visually. The absence of a visible or named reference to the Spirit in that moment does not mean the Spirit is absent or impersonal. The Spirit is fully active, indwelling Stephen at the very moment of his martyrdom and empowering his final witness.
Furthermore, Scripture frequently names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together in contexts that affirm their equal dignity and personal reality. For example, in Matthew 28:19, Jesus commands baptism “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” That singular “name” followed by three divine Persons reveals their consubstantial unity and distinct personhood. It would be incoherent to insert a non-personal force into that list alongside two divine Persons. Similarly, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, the blessing of “the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit” is pronounced on the Church—showing a triune structure of divine blessing and communion.
Finally, we must remember that the Holy Spirit is indeed personal and divine not because He is mentioned in every verse, but because of what Scripture reveals about His actions. He teaches, speaks, intercedes, can be lied to, grieved, resisted, and obeyed. These are not traits of an impersonal force, but of a divine Person. The fact that some verses do not explicitly name all three Persons of the Trinity does not challenge the doctrine. Rather, the cumulative witness of Scripture, especially when interpreted with the Church’s guidance and sacred Tradition, confirms that the Holy Spirit is truly God—consubstantial, coequal, and coeternal with the Father and the Son.
The sacred mystery of the Trinity cannot be reduced to simplistic enumeration in every passage. Revelation unfolds progressively, and the divine Persons are revealed in their missions—through the Father who sends, the Son who is sent, and the Spirit who proceeds to dwell in us. The silence of a text about one of the Persons does not mean theological absence—it simply reflects the economy of revelation. What we proclaim, with the whole Church, is the unity of God in three Persons, each worthy of equal honor and worship, as revealed in Scripture and safeguarded in Catholic doctrine.