Posts by aqwsed12345

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

@Duran

You asked why the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in John 5:22–23, where Jesus says that the Father “judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” This passage focuses on the particular relationship between the Father and the Son in the economy of salvation, specifically concerning divine judgment and the Son’s glorification. The fact that the Holy Spirit is not named in this specific text does not imply His inferiority or non-divinity. Scripture often highlights one or two Persons of the Trinity depending on the subject at hand—such as the Incarnation or the sending of the Son—without implying that the third Person is absent or less divine. For example, in Matthew 11:27, Jesus says, “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son,” without mentioning the Holy Spirit—but this does not mean the Spirit lacks divine knowledge. Rather, Scripture speaks in a way that reveals the Persons in their appropriate missions.

As to the question of how one honors the Father and the Son: we honor the Father by worshipping Him in spirit and truth, obeying His commandments, and recognizing Him as Creator and source of all being (cf. John 4:23–24). We honor the Son by believing in Him as the one sent by the Father, by acknowledging Him as Lord and Savior, and by giving Him the same worship and glory due to the Father, as the early Christians did (cf. Philippians 2:10–11). We also honor the Son liturgically—every time the Church celebrates the Eucharist, prays the Gloria, or concludes prayers “through Christ our Lord,” we are offering true honor.

You then quoted Revelation 14:1 regarding the 144,000 who have the name of the Lamb and of His Father written on their foreheads. You asked: what is the Lamb’s name, and what is the Father’s name? Symbolically, the “name” represents consecration, belonging, and identity—not merely phonetic labeling. In apocalyptic literature like Revelation, the “name” refers to divine ownership and covenantal relationship. The fact that both the Lamb and the Father are named together and written upon the faithful symbolizes their full union with God in Christ, who is the Lamb. The Holy Spirit, though not explicitly named in that particular verse, is the one who seals the faithful, as seen elsewhere in Revelation (7:2–4) and in Ephesians 1:13. The Spirit is the bond of that sealing, and thus is the active agent who inscribes the name of the Father and the Son on the elect—not needing His own name to be written, because He is the one who writes.

For example, regarding Stephen’s vision in Acts 7, the objection is often raised that the Holy Spirit is not “seen,” and therefore is not a divine Person. But this misses the point of the passage. Luke clearly says that Stephen was “full of the Holy Spirit” when he saw the vision of Christ at the right hand of God. In other words, the Holy Spirit is the one who revealed the vision. The Holy Spirit is not “seen” because His role is to reveal the Son and glorify Him (cf. John 16:14), not to manifest Himself visually. The absence of a visible or named reference to the Spirit in that moment does not mean the Spirit is absent or impersonal. The Spirit is fully active, indwelling Stephen at the very moment of his martyrdom and empowering his final witness.

Furthermore, Scripture frequently names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together in contexts that affirm their equal dignity and personal reality. For example, in Matthew 28:19, Jesus commands baptism “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” That singular “name” followed by three divine Persons reveals their consubstantial unity and distinct personhood. It would be incoherent to insert a non-personal force into that list alongside two divine Persons. Similarly, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, the blessing of “the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit” is pronounced on the Church—showing a triune structure of divine blessing and communion.

Finally, we must remember that the Holy Spirit is indeed personal and divine not because He is mentioned in every verse, but because of what Scripture reveals about His actions. He teaches, speaks, intercedes, can be lied to, grieved, resisted, and obeyed. These are not traits of an impersonal force, but of a divine Person. The fact that some verses do not explicitly name all three Persons of the Trinity does not challenge the doctrine. Rather, the cumulative witness of Scripture, especially when interpreted with the Church’s guidance and sacred Tradition, confirms that the Holy Spirit is truly God—consubstantial, coequal, and coeternal with the Father and the Son.

The sacred mystery of the Trinity cannot be reduced to simplistic enumeration in every passage. Revelation unfolds progressively, and the divine Persons are revealed in their missions—through the Father who sends, the Son who is sent, and the Spirit who proceeds to dwell in us. The silence of a text about one of the Persons does not mean theological absence—it simply reflects the economy of revelation. What we proclaim, with the whole Church, is the unity of God in three Persons, each worthy of equal honor and worship, as revealed in Scripture and safeguarded in Catholic doctrine.

65

The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

by Longlivetherenegades in

those who say they are christians or follow christianity needs .

1. father .

2. jesus .

aqwsed12345

@MeanMrMustard

What a thoughtful and honest message — thank you for sharing it. I deeply appreciate your willingness to enter into this kind of dialogue, especially when the subject touches on personal experience, parenting, and the sincere search for what is true. And I truly respect the care you and your wife have taken in how you've raised your daughter — to think, to question, and not to accept things blindly. That’s not something I would ever criticize. In fact, I think many Christians, including myself, would say that real faith must never be blind.

Your story about your daughter at the church event was vivid and actually quite moving. That “wtf face” — I can see it. Children are remarkably perceptive, and they know when something feels off or deeply unfamiliar. And when it comes to the Christian story — the idea of a God who becomes man, who dies on a cross, who speaks of forgiveness through blood — I’ll be the first to admit: if we’re not already steeped in the framework, it’s going to sound really strange. It’s not intuitive. It's certainly not obvious. And, to be honest, if someone doesn’t already believe in the depth of human brokenness or the need for grace, the whole concept of “ransom” can feel like some weird cosmic drama. Why not just forgive, right?

So, to your daughter’s honest reaction — yes, that makes complete sense to me.

And to your larger point: Does someone really need a theological degree — or Thomistic metaphysics — to be saved? Of course not. Salvation is not a vocabulary exam. Jesus didn’t say, “Blessed are the philosophers,” but “Blessed are the poor in spirit.”

You’re right to sense that I believe grace is key. The heart of the Christian claim — at least as I understand and try to live it — is not that God gives us a puzzle and says, “Figure me out or else,” but that God meets us before we understand. He moves first. Any true knowledge of Him is already a gift.

But here’s where I’d offer a gentle clarification to your concern. When I talk about the need to believe “in the Trinity,” I don’t mean someone has to start with that or understand it fully. What I’m saying is this: if God is Trinity — if He has revealed Himself through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit — then saving faith, even if undeveloped, must at least be open to the real God as He is. Not closed off to Him because His nature doesn’t fit our expectations or logic.

That means someone might trust God sincerely, even without yet knowing or grasping His triune nature, and still be within the reach of His grace. I’m not God — I don’t know how He judges hearts. But what I do know is that if someone knowingly rejects the God revealed in Christ — after really encountering that revelation — then it’s not a matter of ignorance or simplicity anymore. It’s a rejection of relationship.

You said something very insightful:

“There was a different meaning to them [the words]. It occurred to me then that the amount of groundwork needed to even begin to accept and believe is immense.”

I think that’s both true and not the full story. Yes, the Christian vision is layered — it has developed over centuries, it uses dense language, and the Church has had to be very precise in order to protect its truths from being twisted. But at its core, Christianity is not a philosophy — it’s a person. Christ. You don’t need to be able to articulate the “hypostatic union” to encounter Him. You don’t need to understand consubstantiality to say “yes” to love, to mercy, to truth.

The early Church didn’t "invent" the Trinity to confuse people. It developed that language to protect the encounter that people were already having — with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. So yes, terms like “essence,” “person,” and “nature” can feel cold or academic, but they came from lived experience of a divine mystery that Christians were trying not to misunderstand or misrepresent.

Let me return to your daughter for a moment. She had questions, and that’s beautiful. That’s where all real theology begins — not with answers, but with wonder and puzzlement. I’d never want her to feel like she has to “catch up” or fake belief to belong. God doesn’t ask us to suspend reason or pretend. What He asks — if Christianity is true — is trust, a willingness to walk toward the light even when we don’t see the whole path.

So no, I don’t believe the average person needs dead languages or a metaphysics course to be saved. But I do think that when someone says, “Tell me more about who God really is,” the Church has a responsibility to speak as clearly, faithfully, and intelligibly as it can. That’s why I use those technical terms — not because I think they save, but because they help preserve the truth of the God who does.

And to your final point — yes, grace is the beginning of all true faith. And if your daughter one day becomes curious not just about the words, but the Word — the person of Jesus — I hope there are Christians in her life who won’t just hand her a pamphlet or a dogma, but who will walk with her, listen, and show her that Christianity is not a system, but a love story. And if she keeps asking “Why?”, I hope they’ll say, “That’s a holy question. Let’s ask it together.”

Thanks again for such a thoughtful and respectful conversation. I’d love to continue it anytime.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

@joey jojo

Thank you for the response—your skepticism is honest, and I appreciate the opportunity to clarify further. I understand how the phrasing "not a what but a who" might sound humorous or even absurd when heard through the lens of modern speech or pop culture. But I’d ask you to pause for a moment and consider that we are speaking here not of a creature or a physical entity, but of the infinite, transcendent God—whose very nature is beyond complete human comprehension, yet who has revealed Himself in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When I wrote that the Holy Spirit is "not a what but a who," I meant precisely this: the Holy Spirit is not a thing, not an impersonal force, not a symbolic metaphor, but a divine person. Not “a person” in the modern psychological sense (e.g., someone with a Myers-Briggs type or quirks), but in the classical theological sense—as a subsistent relation within the one undivided divine essence. Now, let’s unpack this more carefully—not for the sake of clever wordplay, but for the sake of reverence and truth.

Yes, it’s absolutely true—and not merely convenient—that the word “person” in Trinitarian theology does not mean what it typically means in modern speech. And this isn't some post hoc rationalization; it’s part of a long and careful intellectual tradition reaching back to the early Church and articulated most profoundly by St. Thomas Aquinas and the scholastic theologians. When you or I say “person” today, we often mean “a center of consciousness,” or “a psychological being with preferences, emotions, and a personality.” But this modern definition comes from post-Enlightenment developments and doesn’t work when describing the inner life of God. Why? Because if we applied this meaning to God, we would end up with three minds, three wills, three essences—which is tritheism, not monotheism. Instead, in classical theology—especially as developed by Boethius and Aquinas—a person is defined as: "An individual substance of a rational nature" (Boethius, De Persona et Duabus Naturis). But in God, we must go further: since God is one undivided being (actus purus), the Persons are not separate beings or minds. Rather, the term "Person" in God refers to a real relation within the divine essence. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit—but they are not divided in nature. They are distinct only in terms of origin and relation:

The Father is unbegotten.
The Son is eternally begotten of the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle.

This is not “convenient,” but necessary to preserve both God’s unity and the reality of the distinctions Scripture teaches.

Let’s return to the original point. The Holy Spirit is not a “what,” because He is not an impersonal force like gravity. A what can’t teach, can’t be grieved, can’t speak, can’t be lied to. But Scripture shows the Holy Spirit doing all of these:

He teaches (John 14:26)
He speaks (Acts 13:2)
He distributes gifts as He wills (1 Cor 12:11)
He can be resisted and lied to (Acts 5:3–4)
He intercedes with the Father (Romans 8:26)

These are personal actions. They are not what a mere “force” does. If Scripture speaks this way, we must either take it seriously or explain why it should be reinterpreted. As Catholics, we take it seriously—while avoiding both tritheism and modalism.

Why not just say the Holy Spirit is God’s power? Because Scripture doesn’t treat Him that way. When Jesus sends out His disciples, He commands them to baptize in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). That formula reveals equality of dignity and being. It would be incoherent to list a Person, a Person, and then an impersonal power. Moreover, if the Holy Spirit were merely God’s power or active force, why would He speak? Why would He forbid Paul to enter Asia (Acts 16:6)? Why would He be grieved (Ephesians 4:30)? Why would He test Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5)? And why would blasphemy against Him be an unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:32)? You don’t blaspheme a metaphor. You don’t lie to an “it.”

I get it—it may sound strange. That’s because we’re describing a reality we can’t fully grasp. We’re not talking about apples, chairs, or animals. We are talking about the infinite inner life of God. The Trinity is not a puzzle we solve, but a mystery we receive—not irrational, but beyond the limits of finite human concepts. The Church doesn’t ask us to accept absurdity, but to accept what has been revealed and clarified through millennia of prayer, study, and faithful worship. St. Augustine once said that when someone denies the Trinity, they risk losing their soul—but when someone tries to understand it fully, they risk losing their mind. Yet through faith and love, what seems like a riddle becomes a window into the divine life. The Holy Spirit is that divine Love between Father and Son, who has been given to us so that we might become sharers in God’s own life.

So yes—perhaps to modern ears, “not a what but a who” sounds strange. But if we take revelation seriously, and if we want to avoid flattening God into a caricature—either a modalist mask-wearer or a collection of divine beings—we must speak in precise and faithful terms. The Holy Spirit is not just “God’s power.” He is God. Not a separate deity, but the one God in three Persons. Not a force, but the divine Person who indwells the hearts of believers. He is, as the Creed says, “the Lord and Giver of Life.” That is not comedy. That is awe. And that is the God we are called to know, love, and worship.

If you’re willing, I’d love to keep discussing this. I’ve been where you are—in the wrestling, in the questions, and in the desire for clarity. But truth has a way of inviting us deeper. And sometimes what sounds strange turns out to be the only thing that makes sense.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

@joey jojo

First, we need to define what we mean by "person." The traditional formulation of the Trinity is "one God in three persons." However, in modern language, the concept of "person" is practically identical with "being," and it has connotations such as "personality." Within the Trinity, these are "persons" only in a relative sense, in which sense the Father and the Son are not "persons" either, in the same way that humans are persons. It is more correct to speak of three subjects (supposita) or three subsistencies.

The Holy Spirit is truly God—coequal, consubstantial, and coeternal with the Father and the Son. He is not a mere force, energy, or divine influence, nor is He a separate deity alongside the Father and the Son. He is the third Person of the Blessed Trinity, fully God, yet distinct in personhood. To speak clearly and faithfully, we must begin by carefully defining what it means to be a “person” in the Trinity, and how this applies to the Holy Spirit.

The term “person” in Trinitarian theology does not carry the modern psychological or behavioral meaning it often does in casual speech today. It does not refer to personality traits or psychological self-awareness. Rather, in classical Catholic theology, especially as defined by Boethius and developed by Aquinas, a “person” is an individual substance of a rational nature. In God, however, we must refine this further, since God's nature is not divided among the Persons. In the Trinity, there is one divine essence, one intellect, one will—shared entirely and equally among the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The distinction among the Persons lies not in what they are, but in how they are related. The Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not “another god,” but the same God. He is the same divine being who is eternally breathed forth as the mutual Love between the Father and the Son. He is not a separate mind, not a separate nature, but He is a distinct person—a unique I within the Godhead. This can be difficult to grasp because our human concept of “personality” is often tied to distinct centers of consciousness, and this creates confusion. Some ask: does the Trinity contain three egos, three “I”s, three consciousnesses? Are we not then veering toward tritheism? But this is not how the Church speaks. In fact, we must distinguish carefully: while there are indeed three Persons—and hence three I’s—there is only one divine essence, and therefore only one divine intellect and one divine will. So while the Father can say “I,” and the Son can say “I,” and the Holy Spirit can say “I,” these three Persons do not constitute three separate minds, nor do they each possess a different divine essence. They each fully are the one and only God.

To understand this, the analogy often employed by the Church Fathers and developed by Aquinas is that of relations. In God, the Persons are distinct only by their relations of origin. The Father is the origin without origin. The Son is eternally begotten, meaning He receives the fullness of the divine nature from the Father in an eternal act of generation. The Holy Spirit proceeds not by generation but by spiration—He is spirated by the mutual love of the Father and the Son. He is not their creation, not their product in time, but their eternal gift to each other, their shared breath of divine Love. That is why the Church speaks of Him as the “Gift,” the bond of charity, the living flame of divine communion. And yet, as the Nicene Creed proclaims, He is “the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified.” He is not a mere expression of God’s power or presence—He is God.

This understanding guards us from two major errors: on one side, modalism, which says that God is only one person appearing in three different “modes” or roles; and on the other side, tritheism, which would treat the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three distinct gods. The Catholic faith avoids both extremes by carefully affirming one essence in three Persons. The Holy Spirit is not simply the “power” of God, as some heretical sects suggest. He is not a faceless “force” like in pantheistic systems. A force does not speak, does not love, does not intercede, does not grieve. But the Holy Spirit does all of these things in Scripture. He teaches (John 14:26), He intercedes (Romans 8:26), He distributes gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11), He is lied to (Acts 5:3–4), He sends (Acts 13:2), and He is named equally with the Father and the Son in baptism (Matthew 28:19). These actions are not those of an impersonal energy but of a divine person.

The Holy Spirit, then, is not a separate deity, nor is He a mere function or action of God. He is the third Person of the Most Holy Trinity. He is the Love breathed eternally between the Father and the Son. And because love is not something God has but something God is (1 John 4:8), the Holy Spirit is not simply what unites the Trinity but who unites the Trinity. He is not the passive effect of the Father and the Son, but a Person in His own right—possessing the fullness of divinity, acting with divine authority, and worthy of divine worship.

The Thomistic tradition preserves this mystery by maintaining the essential unity of God’s being while also upholding the real distinction of persons. God is one substance, one divine being, but He exists as three subsistent relations. This language may seem technical, but it protects the mystery: we do not invent explanations out of human categories. Rather, we confess what has been revealed—what Christ has spoken, what the Spirit has inspired, and what the Church has handed on with clarity and reverence. In this confession, we adore not three gods, but one God in three Persons. And in this mystery, we discover that God is not solitary, but eternally relational: an infinite communion of love, into which we are drawn by grace.

So when we ask, “Who is the Holy Spirit?”, the answer is not a what but a who. He is the Lord, the Giver of Life, the Sanctifier, the Teacher, the Advocate. He is the divine Person who comes to dwell in the souls of the baptized, making them temples of God. He is not an impersonal presence but the personal Love of the Father and the Son, poured into our hearts. And by Him, we cry out “Abba, Father” (Romans 8:15), because He draws us into the inner life of the Trinity, where the Love that is God becomes our own life and joy forever.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

I refer to this article:

Are there two personalities in Christ, a human "I" and a divine "I"?

Here is what the blogger writes in one of the comments:

If you think there are two "I"s and two personalities, how do you reconcile verses like the one I have pointed to above?: "I am the way" (according to his humanity) "and the truth and the life" (according to his divinity).
Here we have Christ speaking in one "I" of himself as God (the Truth and Life) and as Man (the Way).

So it is not unprecedented that Christ "switches" within a sentence whether a statement refers to his divine or human nature. See also:

How Jesus is the Way, and how he is the Truth and the Life

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

It’s not like "dividing" Scripture arbitrarily into strictly human or strictly divine statements, Jesus does not alternate “back and forth” between two isolated natures as though He were two separate beings, one human and one divine. This would be Nestorianism, do you know the essential difference between Nestorianism and Chalcedonism? The core principle of orthodox Christology is precisely that Jesus is always one Person acting in and through two natures simultaneously. When Christ speaks or acts, He does so as the one eternal Logos who fully and personally possesses both the divine and the human nature, united without confusion in one hypostasis or person. Hence, every action and every statement made by Jesus can be properly attributed to the Person of the Son, yet some of these acts and statements express truths that pertain particularly to His divinity, others to His humanity, and some express the reality of both natures at once.

By the way, this is where the concept of communicatio idiomatum comes into play, which also establishes Mary's title of Theotokos. That is why there is a saying that the Theotokos is the refuter of all (Christological) heresies, since whoever understands it correctly, understands what hypostatic unity is, what communicatio idiomatum is. Although of course, if someone doesn't understand communicatio idiomatum, the question is how they can explain biblical passages like Luke 1:43, Acts 3:15, Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 2:8. In fact, guided by Thomistic metaphysical logic, Chalcedonian Trinitarianism is the only pure monotheistic view of all religions. Look at my arguments written to Muslim apologists about the Trinity vs. "Shirk".

In John 10:18, Christ’s assertion, "I have authority to lay down my life, and I have authority to take it up again," does not require one to arbitrarily divide the verse into a human or divine "speaker." Rather, it reveals precisely the profound unity of His Person: the divine Son, who became incarnate, possesses divine authority inherently (by His eternal divine nature) but also exercises it concretely through His humanity, having willingly taken flesh. The very fact that He speaks of receiving a command from the Father does not diminish this inherent divine authority but emphasizes that His human will is perfectly united to the divine will. Thus, He freely and willingly accepts the Father’s will as His own—not out of inferiority or ontological subordination, but out of the harmony and order intrinsic to the divine persons and revealed concretely in the incarnation.

Your objection rests on a misunderstanding of the Christological doctrines as if they imply some sort of competing dualism. The incarnate Logos is always acting as one Person, whose divine authority is not obliterated or reduced by His humanity, nor is His human obedience negated by His divinity. Instead, the two natures coexist in a single subject, the Son of God, without mixing or confusion. When Jesus expresses His obedience to the Father, this is a genuinely human act flowing from His human nature, yet it is also fully personal to the divine Son. Similarly, when He speaks of possessing divine authority to raise Himself, this authority is fundamentally rooted in His divine nature and is perfectly integrated with His human obedience. These realities are complementary, not contradictory.

The mistake Arians make—and the one reflected implicitly in your argument—is the assumption that the presence of genuine human obedience necessarily excludes genuine divine authority. But such an assumption only makes sense if one already presupposes a unitarian framework in which there is only one layer of being, either human or divine, but never both simultaneously united in one Person. The Chalcedonian understanding explicitly denies that assumption. Christ’s human obedience is the freely chosen expression, within time, of the eternal Son’s divine will—manifested through human acts in the economy of salvation. The very fact that Christ can speak both of His authority and of receiving a command without contradiction underscores precisely the mystery and the profundity of the incarnation: the eternal Son, who is fully divine, is also authentically human. His human obedience is a concrete manifestation of His divine Sonship, perfectly expressing within human history His eternal relationship with the Father.

Christ always acts as a single Divine Person, whose actions authentically manifest both His divinity and His humanity. In John 10:18, Jesus’ statement reveals this profound unity: the Son who eternally receives the divine nature from the Father also perfectly and freely obeys the Father in His human nature. The incarnational reality is neither contradictory nor confusing—it is precisely the profound truth of who Jesus is: the eternal Word made flesh.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

And oh well... let's see other option, like

1) I have my own pre-written notes

2) I only use AI to proofread and format my shorthand responses

So don't accuse me that these aren't my thoughts and I don't know the technical terms myself. For example, the apple-basket analogy is entirely my own, I have never heard it from a single theologian, and you couldn't find it anywhere else. I used to use this analogy even when ChatGPT didn't even exist yet.

Also, if you hadn't noticed, I often upload my comments and often add a few paragraphs to them afterwards, so the time of uploading the post doesn't mean that I wrote and posted everything in that minute.

But instead of accusing, you could also focus substantially on the content.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

You wouldn't believe how efficient I can be if I want to ;-)

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

Your objection hinges on two misunderstandings: first, a mistaken view of what it means for Jesus to say He received authority; and second, a false assumption about what it would mean for God to be "commanded." These rest on an Arian reading that denies the incarnation, ignores the two natures of Christ, and fails to understand Trinitarian theology as it has been confessed by Christians since the apostolic era.

Let’s begin with your imagined statement: “God took back his life because he was commanded to do so.” You object that this doesn't make sense because, in your words, (1) “God can’t give up his life,” and (2) “God can’t be commanded by anyone.” But this ignores the very core of Christian belief: the Word became flesh (John 1:14). Jesus, the eternal Son, took on human nature. He did not cease being God, but He entered into a real human existence — one that included mortality, weakness, obedience, and growth (Luke 2:52; Hebrews 5:8). So when Jesus says, “This command I received from my Father” (John 10:18), He is speaking in His incarnate, messianic role, not denying His divinity.

Yes — as God, the Son shares the divine nature, is uncreated, and is of one being (homoousios) with the Father. But as man, He could say things like “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), or “I do not know the hour” (Mark 13:32), or “I received a command” — not because He lacks divinity, but because He is one divine Person with two natures (divine and human), and He speaks truly from both. This is not contradictory; it is the Incarnation.

You claim that God can’t die. Of course — as God. But Jesus didn’t die in His divine nature. The eternal Son died in His human nature, as Christians have always believed. If God the Son never truly became man — if He was merely an exalted creature — then we have no Incarnation, and Christianity collapses. But if He truly took flesh, then His obedience, His death, and His resurrection are not signs of inferiority, but of the humility of the God who stoops to save.

You also say that “Jesus says He was given all authority by God” (Matthew 28:18), and then argue, “Where is the verse where God says ‘all my authority was given to me’?” But this is a category mistake. The Father is not the Son. Trinitarian theology doesn’t teach that the Father is the Son or the Son is the Spirit. Rather, it teaches that the three Persons fully share the one divine nature, and that the Son, as Son, eternally receives His divine being from the Father, not as a creature receives power, but as a Son receives the same nature. This is called eternal generation — and far from implying inferiority, it affirms equality of nature.

So when Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,” He is speaking not from the standpoint of abstract divinity, but as the risen, glorified God-man, who has now assumed kingship over the world as the Messiah. The “giving” of authority is not about a created being being given divine power, but about the enthronement of the Incarnate Son, who has completed His work (cf. Daniel 7:13–14; Philippians 2:9–11). It is the reward of His messianic mission, not proof of ontological subordination.

As for John 10:18, you’re downplaying Jesus’ own words. He says, “I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it up again.” The Greek (ἐξουσίαν ἔχω) is clear. This is not mere passive obedience. It’s divine prerogative. And it’s inseparable from the statement: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself.” That is a divine claim. No prophet ever spoke that way. Not Moses, not Elijah, not even Michael (assuming, wrongly, that he could be identified with Jesus). But Jesus says He has authority over life and death — not just others’, but His own. This is the power of One who is life itself (John 1:4; 11:25).

You cite Matthew 28:18 as if the phrase “was given” proves subordination. But this is again only compelling if you reject the Incarnation. Jesus is the God-man. He possesses all authority in His divine nature from eternity — but as the risen Messiah, He now exercises that authority in the human nature He assumed for our salvation. In that nature, He received glory and honor from the Father — not because He lacked it eternally, but because the Son took on a new role in time. This is Philippians 2:6–11: “Being in very nature God… he humbled himself… therefore God exalted him.”

Your argument also fails to account for John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Jesus clearly says He will raise His body — not He will be raised, not the Father will raise Him, but “I will raise it.” And as John adds, “He was speaking about the temple of His body.” That is a direct claim that He, Jesus, would resurrect Himself. No mere creature talks this way. Paul affirms the same divine identity when he writes: “Christ Jesus, who… did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Phil 2:6).

Finally, your entire critique collapses when you try to argue that authority “given” to Jesus implies inferiority — as though one divine Person cannot entrust a mission to another without that implying inequality. But this is to import human categories into God, and to confuse economic roles with ontological rank. Within the Trinity, there is order without inequality, mission without subordination of nature. The Son is not less than the Father — He is the Son, who from eternity receives the divine being and shares it fully.

So yes, Jesus was “given” authority — but as man, as Messiah, as Savior. And yes, He was “commanded” — because He came to do the will of His Father. But in doing so, He revealed His divinity, not denied it. As the Nicene Creed rightly proclaims: “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father.” That’s not a corruption. That’s the Gospel.

When engaging with Arian claims that deny the full divinity of Jesus Christ, one recurring confusion lies in the way Scripture refers to Christ in both His human and divine natures. Arians often take verses that refer to Christ’s humanity—such as “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), “He learned obedience” (Heb. 5:8), or “He grew in wisdom and stature” (Luke 2:52)—and treat them as conclusive evidence that Christ cannot be fully divine. But this fails to account for the central Christian truth of the hypostatic union: that Christ is one Person in two natures, divine and human.

To clarify this concept, imagine a simple analogy with two baskets and apples.

Suppose you're sorting apples: you have two baskets, one for green apples and one for red apples. Your job is to put each apple in the right basket. This is not difficult when the color distinction is clear. You don't put a green apple in the red basket just because it’s still an apple.

Now apply that logic to the biblical texts about Christ:

You have one "basket" for passages that refer to Christ's human nature (e.g., born of a woman, tired, hungry, growing in wisdom, praying to the Father, dying on the cross).
You have another "basket" for passages that refer to Christ's divine nature (e.g., “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [the] God, and the Word was God” – John 1:1; “I and the Father are one” – John 10:30; “though he was in the form of God…” – Philippians 2:6; worshiped by angels – Hebrews 1:6).

The Arians try to take verses that clearly go into the "human nature basket" and throw them into the "divine nature basket" to disprove Christ’s divinity. That is as confused as trying to prove that all apples are green by holding up only green apples and pretending the red ones don't exist—or worse, by putting green apples into the red basket and claiming there's no difference.

John 14:28 ("the Father is greater than I") is a green apple—it belongs to the basket of Christ’s human experience. It does not contradict John 1:1 or Philippians 2:6, which are clearly red apples, belonging to the basket of His eternal divine nature.

This sorting is not arbitrary—it reflects the truth of the Incarnation. Christ is fully God and fully man. The human nature did not cancel the divine nature, nor did the divine nature consume the human. The Person of Christ operates in both natures without confusion, without change, without division, without separation, as defined in the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD).

So, what does this mean for Arian proof-texting? Whenever an Arian points to a passage like:

“The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)
“The Son does not know the day or the hour” (Mark 13:32)
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46)

... they are pointing to real truths—about Christ’s humanity. But they misapply them by acting as if they speak to the entirety of His Person, or as if they exclude His divinity. But Scripture also teaches:

“In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Col. 2:9)
“All things were created by Him and for Him” (Col. 1:16)
“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58)

You cannot interpret one set of passages in a way that cancels out the other. That’s bad exegesis and bad theology.

In conclusion, to rightly understand Christ, we must discern which nature is being emphasized in a given passage. The error of Arianism arises from collapsing both baskets into one and insisting that every statement about Jesus must apply equally to His essence in the same way. But orthodox Christianity maintains the vital distinction: one Person, two natures—truly God and truly man. Denying either nature leads to heresy. Keeping them properly distinguished leads to the worship of the true Christ, the eternal Son of God who took on flesh for our salvation.

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The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

aqwsed12345

@slimboyfat

Quoting John 5:30—“I can do nothing on my own authority”—to deny Jesus' divine agency in His resurrection profoundly misrepresents the context and meaning of that passage. Far from being a statement of weakness or inferiority, it affirms the perfect unity between the Son and the Father in will, judgment, and divine action. Jesus is not saying that He lacks divine authority in Himself. Rather, He is speaking as the obedient Son, who, in perfect harmony with the Father, acts not independently in opposition to the Father but in concert with Him. The phrase “I can do nothing on my own” (οὐ δύναμαι ποιεῖν ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ οὐδέν) is not a confession of incapacity but a declaration of inseparable unity. It echoes John 5:19, where Jesus says:

“The Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.”

This means that the Son does everything the Father does—in the same way, including resurrection:

“My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” (John 5:17)
“As the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.” (John 5:21)

And that includes judgment:

“The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.” (John 5:22–23)

This is not subordinationism; this is divine identity. Hence Christ does not question that He is equal to God — which He would have had to do if He were not — but rather states that the divine works of the Son are also the works of the Father. The Son can only do what He beholds in His divine essence, which He received from the Father; and thus, He does everything that the Father does, insofar as the Son operates with the same divine power as the Father. They work equally, because they are completely equal in nature; only where there is no equality of being can there be no equality in mode of operation. That this refers exclusively to divine actions is self-evident, because those divine acts of the Son which were also human — for example, His sufferings — can only be called acts of the Father insofar as they were in accord with His will, but not as acts proper to Him; for the Father did not become man together with the Son. Insofar as the Incarnation introduced a certain distinction of being between the Father and the Son, the God-man’s actions could not be proper acts of the Father.

No mere creature can give life “to whom he will” or demand that all people give him the same honor as the Father. The claim that Jesus is merely an “agent” misunderstands what kind of agency He possesses. He is not like Moses or a prophet, temporarily commissioned and ontologically distinct from the Principal. He is the eternal Son, who has life in Himself, just as the Father does (John 5:26). This is a shared divine attribute—aseity—which no created being can possess.

So when Jesus says in John 5:30, “I can do nothing on my own authority,” He is expressing His perfect unity of will and action with the Father—not an inability, but an inseparability (cf. Perichoresis). Augustine rightly comments that this means Christ judges “not without the Father,” because all divine acts are performed in unity. He judges “as He hears,” not because He is an ontologically subordinate receiver, but because His hearing and judgment are part of His divine knowledge, which He possesses eternally from the Father. As the Church Fathers observed, the Son’s divine will is not “another” will; it is one with the Father’s. Furthermore, your objection ignores John 10:17–18, where Jesus says with absolute clarity:

“I have authority to lay down my life, and I have authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Here, Jesus explicitly claims active authority in His own resurrection. The verb “take up again” (λαβεῖν) is not passive. It is set in parallel with “I lay it down,” both governed by the repeated phrase “I have authority.” This is Jesus’ own interpretation of His role—not as a passive recipient, but as one who acts with divine power. And when Jesus says He received a command, He is not denying His power. He is affirming the Trinitarian harmony of mission: the Son’s work is the Father’s work, but this mission is carried out with divine authority shared within the Godhead.

Your interpretation also conflicts with John 2:19, where Jesus says:

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
And John clarifies: “He was speaking about the temple of His body.” (John 2:21)

This is unambiguous: Jesus declares He will raise Himself from the dead. The Gospel of John affirms both the Father’s role (John 5:21; Acts 2:24), and the Son’s active role (John 2:19; 10:18), and the Spirit’s role (Romans 8:11) in the resurrection. This is not a contradiction. This is the Trinitarian unity: one divine action, one divine will, three Persons inseparably working together.

Lastly, the “agency” model some anti-Trinitarians invoke cannot explain this level of divine prerogative. Jewish agents never claimed to be honored as God is honored, to have life in themselves, or to judge the world on the Day of the Lord. Jesus does all these—and then says, “that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” (John 5:23)

No created agent can receive the same honor due to God without blasphemy—unless that agent is Himself divine.

Therefore, John 5:30 does not diminish Jesus’ authority, nor does it conflict with His power to raise Himself. It affirms the Son’s divine identity, inseparable unity with the Father, and the perfect harmony of the Trinity in the work of salvation.