2000+ y.o.Hellenistic Style Gold Earring Discovered in Jerusalem.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in find of ancient gold earring, echoes of greek rule over jerusalem .

jerusalem (reuters) - a gold earring believed to date back more than 2000 years has been unearthed near the site of the ancient jewish temples in jerusalem, in what israeli archaeologists called rare evidence of hellenistic influence.. see the reuters report: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-archaeology/in-find-of-ancient-gold-earring-echoes-of-greek-rule-over-jerusalem-iduskbn1kt18g.

such material trinkets may be rare, but there is a lot of scholarly discussion as to the depth of greek influence in the minds and hearts of the jewish population of that time..

fulltimestudent

haha! its taught me a great deal about your thought processes.

5

2000+ y.o.Hellenistic Style Gold Earring Discovered in Jerusalem.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in find of ancient gold earring, echoes of greek rule over jerusalem .

jerusalem (reuters) - a gold earring believed to date back more than 2000 years has been unearthed near the site of the ancient jewish temples in jerusalem, in what israeli archaeologists called rare evidence of hellenistic influence.. see the reuters report: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-archaeology/in-find-of-ancient-gold-earring-echoes-of-greek-rule-over-jerusalem-iduskbn1kt18g.

such material trinkets may be rare, but there is a lot of scholarly discussion as to the depth of greek influence in the minds and hearts of the jewish population of that time..

fulltimestudent

And, if a desire for further deep thoughts on the Reincarnation versus Resurrection debate, trouble your mind you may like to read this paper that was given at he Asian Conference on Ethics, Religion & Philosophy, 30 March - 2 April, Osaka, Japan, 2012.

Abstract

papers.cfm?abstract_id=2069596
I sure hope that I've confused no-one.

5

2000+ y.o.Hellenistic Style Gold Earring Discovered in Jerusalem.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in find of ancient gold earring, echoes of greek rule over jerusalem .

jerusalem (reuters) - a gold earring believed to date back more than 2000 years has been unearthed near the site of the ancient jewish temples in jerusalem, in what israeli archaeologists called rare evidence of hellenistic influence.. see the reuters report: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-archaeology/in-find-of-ancient-gold-earring-echoes-of-greek-rule-over-jerusalem-iduskbn1kt18g.

such material trinkets may be rare, but there is a lot of scholarly discussion as to the depth of greek influence in the minds and hearts of the jewish population of that time..

fulltimestudent

Smile! Glad you found it at last, brother Perry.

May I say, your pik shows that in your excellent conidition for a 2100 years old guy. So good in fact, that I cant believe that you have existed all these years. Therefore I'm looking at the alternative - that actually you are either a re-incarnated human or that you are an early ressurectee of the 'princes of old' that Joe R believed would soon be hitting the sunny uplands of California.

There is, of course, a technical difference between resurrection and reincarnation. I will attempt to explain that technical difference.

Resurrection is a person coming back to life. For example, in the bible, Jesus died and he rose again. ... Every Christian believes he will be resurrected just like Jesus one day.

This definition is dependent on the dictionary definition: "the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or existence"

Reincarnation, on the other hand is a soul (or something) beginning a new life in a new body on earth, not necessarily in the body of a human.

Again dependent on a dictionary definition: "the rebirth of a soul in another body."

So I'm not sure what process you have endured brother Perry. In fact, when you start a discussion with someone on this topic, its damned hard not to get confused as most religious people start to get a bit muddled.

To illustrate: As JWs we imagined that when we died, we disappeared from existence and could only be brought back by the fact that YHWH (or Maybe JESUS) in their ever expanding giant harddisc like mind, would find a little space to remember every detail of our previous existence, so that when he graciously favoured us with remembrance and re-made a similar body to our pre-death body, our first thought would quite possibly immediately connect to our last pre-death thought(s).

I've heard Jws go to enormous lengths to deny that that would be a 'reincarnation.' But compare it to what many Buddhists seem to believe, which is: All living things undergo a continues process of life, death and reincarnation. How does that happen? Well, they imagine that when we die, a "trace" of us continues and becomes implanted in some near-to-being-born lifeform. If you want to ask a Buddhist what that 'trace' is, I can only wish you good luck. But they are insistent, somehow that that 'trace' not only exists but is preserved until implanted in it's next 'host.' And, Hey! Presto, its the new you!!!!

Is that so very different from the JW concept? YHWH preserves a 'trace' of us, that enables him to implant that trace/memory of you into the new body/host and HEY! Presto!n its the new /old us.

So what do you reckon brother Perry, which way did you experience this blessing?

5

2000+ y.o.Hellenistic Style Gold Earring Discovered in Jerusalem.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

in find of ancient gold earring, echoes of greek rule over jerusalem .

jerusalem (reuters) - a gold earring believed to date back more than 2000 years has been unearthed near the site of the ancient jewish temples in jerusalem, in what israeli archaeologists called rare evidence of hellenistic influence.. see the reuters report: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-archaeology/in-find-of-ancient-gold-earring-echoes-of-greek-rule-over-jerusalem-iduskbn1kt18g.

such material trinkets may be rare, but there is a lot of scholarly discussion as to the depth of greek influence in the minds and hearts of the jewish population of that time..

fulltimestudent

In find of ancient gold earring, echoes of Greek rule over Jerusalem

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - A gold earring believed to date back more than 2000 years has been unearthed near the site of the ancient Jewish temples in Jerusalem, in what Israeli archaeologists called rare evidence of Hellenistic influence.

See the Reuters report: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-archaeology/in-find-of-ancient-gold-earring-echoes-of-greek-rule-over-jerusalem-idUSKBN1KT18G

Such material trinkets may be rare, but there is a lot of scholarly discussion as to the depth of Greek influence in the minds and hearts of the Jewish population of that time.

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

fulltimestudent

Drearyweather: What are your views on this? Do you feel that Islamic knowledge can be called as the assimilation of previously known knowledge? Was Medieval Islam a concoction of conquered civilisations?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last sentence of my last post, notes:

Quote: "One lesson to take away from this discussion is that all the evidence in antiquity points to a sharing of information from different sources and traditions. There is no 'long line of a true religion' in history."

That's my conclusion after 10 metaphorical years criss-crossing Asia as the well-spring of history,

The Arab thinkers were happy to research the conclusions of Hellenistic thinkers. And European thinkers (later) were happy to learn form the Arab preservers of Hellenistic/Roman understanding of the world.

Human knowledge is a gradual development built on observation and the testing (as far as possible) of a theory. And, as thinkers discussed their ideas, there has been a general sharing of knowledge that continues to this time period.

We know now that Egyptian knowledge was admired by the Greeks (and the Israelites also, recall Acts 7:22 - "Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians " Later, Greek (Hellenistic) thinking was assiimilated by Jewish people.)

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

fulltimestudent

TTWSYF: Fulltime student-This is the first paragraph from your link from above. This first paragraph indicates that Christian monasteries were first, doesn't it? Funny, you left that out.

Yes! I deliberately did not quote the first paragraph. But. it was not funny at all, TTWSYF! Do christians like you, ever stop to think about why things are written the way they are?

Let's take a closer look at that first paragraph.

Quote: "The hospital was one of the great achievements of medieval Islamic society. The relation of the design and development of Islamic hospitals to the earlier and contemporaneous poor and sick relief facilities offered by some Christian monasteries has not been fully delineated. Clearly, however, the medieval Islamic hospital was a more elaborate institution with a wider range of functions."

The above author was acknowledging that little is known about the (quote) "poor and sick relief facilities offered by some Christian monasteries." And, I did not want to further complicate a difficult research area by discussing the development of Christian monasteries. So let's do that now!

Strange christian believers were soon evident in early christianity, apparently trying to emulate the 40 days Jesus spent in the wilderness. They began to live in caves, in trees, on top of poles, etc. Later some started to live these sort of lives in small groups (maybe demonstrating that insanity can be infectious - smile).

St. Pachomius is usually credited with the establisment of the first cenoitic (community-based) christian monastery in 346 CE at (possibly) Tabenna in Egypt. His intention apparently was to allow individiuals who lacked the skills to survive alone in the desert, to live in an organised community.

You can easily imagine, that in time, some of these monks would need nursing, either because of advanced age or sustaining an injury. So now think of JW bethel homes, some, at least, by all accounts, had 'sick bays.' Can these be called hospitals? Could the similar sick bays, in those first monasteries be called "hospitals?" Maybe now you may understand where the author of the cited text was going when he wrote that sentence. And, why I chose not to discuss that connection. For your punishment for your lack of critical thinking, you can read this explanation now!!!!

If you want to class a 'sick bay' in a monastery as the equivalent of a modern hospital, go ahead, but I suggest that there is a world of difference between a monastic sick bay and the described Islamic hospital of that article.

However, even if you accept that monastic sick bay as a hospital, it still does not mean that christians developed the first hospitals, as the subsequent quotations I offered make clear, the pagan Greeks and Romans had developed an equivalent to the modern hospital in the temples associated with Asclepius and known as asclepieions, well before Jesus was a twinkle in YHWH's eye.

And.by the way, Asclepius's symbol (the rod of Asclepius, a rod with a serpent entwined) is still used as a synbal of medicine, to this day. And the names of his daughters are still associated with aspects of medicine. His daughters were:

1. Hygieia ("Hygiene", the goddess/personification of health, cleanliness, and sanitation).

2. Iaso (the goddess of recuperation from illness).

3. .Aceso (the goddess of the healing process).

4. Aglæa/Ægle (the goddess of the glow of good health),

5, Panacea (the goddess of universal remedy).

But let's back track now and ask the question, from where could these early Christians have gotten the idea of a monastic community?

St. Pachomius, lived in Egypt, and the Red sea Egyptian coast had strong trade links to India. India was where Buddhism developed, and Buddhists are known to have established monasteries, (as well as a missionary network) from as early as the 4th century BCE. We know that Buddhists were preaching in Egypt in Roman times, and its' easy to imagine that people knew of the concept of monastic communities from their knowledge of Buddhists.

So it is interesting to read the Wikipedia (for convenience) entry on "History of Hospitals."

Quote: "Institutions created specifically to care for the ill also appeared early in India. Fa Xian, a Chinese Buddhist monk who travelled across India ca. 400 AD, recorded in his travelogue [5] that

The heads of the Vaishya [merchant] families in them [all the kingdoms of north India] establish in the cities houses for dispensing charity and medicine. All the poor and destitute in the country, orphans, widowers, and childless men, maimed people and cripples, and all who are diseased, go to those houses, and are provided with every kind of help, and doctors examine their diseases. They get the food and medicines which their cases require, and are made to feel at ease; and when they are better, they go away of themselves.

The earliest surviving encyclopaedia of medicine in Sanskrit is the Carakasamhita (Compendium of Caraka). This text, which describes the building of a hospital is dated by the medical historian Dominik Wujastyk to the period between 100 BCE and 150 CE.[6] The description by Fa Xian is one of the earliest accounts of a civic hospital system anywhere in the world and this evidence, coupled with Caraka’s description of how a clinic should be built and equipped, suggests that India may have been the first part of the world to have evolved an organized cosmopolitan system of institutionally-based medical provision.[7]

King Ashoka is wrongly said by many secondary sources to have founded at hospitals in ca. 230 BCE[8]

According to the Mahavamsa, the ancient chronicle of Sinhalese royalty, written in the sixth century CE, King Pandukabhaya of Sri Lanka (reigned 437 BCE to 367 BCE) had lying-in-homes and hospitals (Sivikasotthi-Sala) built in various parts of the country. This is the earliest documentary evidence we have of institutions specifically dedicated to the care of the sick anywhere in the world.[9][10] Mihintale Hospital is the oldest in the world.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hospitals

One lesson to take away from this discussion is that all the evidence in antiquity points to a sharing of information from differernt sources and traditions. There is no 'long line of a true religion' in hiustory.

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

fulltimestudent

And one more flash of enlightenment for the minds of blinded christians. Let's return to the topic of the first centres for healing.

Have you ever heard of an Asclepeion? Asclepeions, wwere temples of healing dedicated to the Greek God of Healing. named Asclepius, the son of Apollo who was also regarded as a healer. When we read of the claimed healing miracles of Jesus, we should think of the early christian need to compete with both Apollo and Asclepius.

You can read more about Ascepius and his sisters who also are still remembered by their names in western terminology at :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius

Wikipedia also describes these Temples of healing:\.

Quote: "Starting around 350 BC, the cult of Asclepius became increasingly popular. Pilgrims flocked to asclepieia to be healed. They slept overnight ("incubation") and reported their dreams to a priest the following day. He prescribed a cure, often a visit to the baths or a gymnasium. Since snakes were sacred to Asclepius, they were often used in healing rituals. Non-venomous snakes were left to crawl on the floor in dormitories where the sick and injured slept.

Asclepeia included carefully controlled spaces conducive to healing and fulfilled several of the requirements of institutions created for healing.[3] In the Asclepieion of Epidaurus, three large marble boards dated to 350 BC preserve the names, case histories, complaints, and cures of about 70 patients who came to the temple with a problem and shed it there. Some of the surgical cures listed, such as the opening of an abdominal abscess or the removal of traumatic foreign material, are realistic enough to have taken place, with the patient in a dream-like state of induced sleep known as "enkoimesis" (Greek: ἐγκοίμησις), not unlike anesthesia, induced with the help of soporific substances such as opium.[4"

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepeion

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

fulltimestudent

TTWSYF: This same church gave the world great fruits thru it's works. Things like a universities,

Here's a wikipedia quote on the first learning institutions that we now call "universities."

Hellenism[edit]

Aristotle's School, a painting from the 1880s by Gustav Adolph Spangenberg

The Platonic Academy (sometimes referred to as the University of Athens),[3][4] founded ca. 387 BC in Athens, Greece, by the philosopher Plato, lasted 916 years (until AD 529) with interruptions.[5] It was emulated during the Renaissance by the Florentine Platonic Academy, whose members saw themselves as following Plato's tradition.

Around 335 BC, Plato's successor Aristotle founded the Peripatetic school, the students of which met at the Lyceumgymnasium in Athens. The school ceased in 86 BC during the famine, siege and sacking of Athens by Sulla.[6]

During the Hellenistic period, the Museion in Alexandria (which included the Library of Alexandria) became the leading research institute for science and technology from which many Greek innovations sprang. The engineer Ctesibius (fl. 285–222 BC) may have been its first head. It was suppressed and burned between AD 216 and 272, and the library was destroyed between 272 and 391.

The reputation of these Greek institutions was such that at least four central modern educational terms derive from them: the academy, the lyceum, the gymnasiumand the museum.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_higher-learning_institutions

So the first institutes for higher learning were actually pagan. Got that!!!!

______________________________________________________________________________

And likely predating, any European higher learning institution there were Buddhist universities, established in India. For example the Buddhist University of Nalanda.Nalanda

UNESCO World Heritage Site
Official name	Archaeological Site of Nalanda Mahavihara(Nalanda University) at Nalanda, Bihar

Nalanda (IAST: Nālandā; /naːlən̪d̪aː/) was a Mahavihara, a large Buddhist monastery, in the ancient kingdom of Magadha (modern-day Bihar) in India. The site is located about 95 kilometres (59 mi) southeast of Patna near the town of Bihar Sharif, and was a centre of learning from the fifth century CE to c. 1200 CE.[4] It is a UNESCO World Heritage Site

At its peak, the school attracted scholars and students from near and far with some travelling from Tibet, China, Korea, and Central Asia.[14] Archaeological evidence also notes contact with the Shailendra dynasty of Indonesia, one of whose kings built a monastery in the complex.

Much of our knowledge of Nalanda comes from the writings of pilgrim monks from Asia such as Xuanzang and Yijingwho travelled (from China) to the Mahavihara in the 7th century. Vincent Smith remarked that "a detailed history of Nalanda would be a history of Mahayanist Buddhism". Many of the names listed by Xuanzang in his travelogue as products of Nalanda are the names of those who developed the philosophy of Mahayana.[15] All students at Nalanda studied Mahayana as well as the texts of the eighteen (Hinayana) sects of Buddhism. Their curriculum also included other subjects such as the Vedas, logic, Sanskrit grammar, medicine and Samkhya.[7][16][17][18]

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

It maybe enlightewning to your mind to recall that state of western Europe in that era. A Buddhist scholar contrasts India and western Europe in these words.

Quote: "It is well-known that with the rise of Buddhism in India there dawned the golden age of India’s culture and civilisation. There was progress in all aspects of Indian civilisation under the impact of Buddhism. This is very much in contrast to what happened in the Roman empire in Europe with the rise of Christianity. With the coming of Christianity into power the Dark Ages dawned upon Europe. During this era whatever progress that was achieved by the Greeks and the Romans received a set-back and came to a stand-still. Schools and centres of philosophy were closed down. The famed library at Alexandria was burnt down by a Christian mob led by a prelate. Hypatia the learned philosopher and teacher was dragged into a Church and her flesh was torn off her body. As a result of these barbarities Europe was plunged into the darkness of ignorance and poverty for a thousand years. The Dark Ages of European history was really the golden age of the Christian Church, because it did the conversion of the barbarians to Christianity during this time. The great philosophers and intellectuals of Europe who left their mark on human civilisation were all pre-Christian pagans who lived prior to the rise of Christianity, e.g. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Seneca, Pliny, etc. The Christian era was masked by an absence of such men. Illiteracy and religious intolerance prevailed during the Dark Ages.

At the end of this period the Muslims had conquered parts of the Roman empire and established their rule in Spain, Portugal and parts of France. They introduced the learning of the Greeks and Romans as well as knowledge gathered from their contacts with India. This set the pace for Martin Luther’s reformation which broke the power of the Catholic Church. The ensuing liberal policies persuaded by the Protestants brought about the Renaissance, after this the Europeans pushed back the power of the Churches and began to make progress in civilisation.

In contrast to this with the rise of Buddhism in India, there arose many centres of learning which did not exist before. Buddhist monks could opt for a life of meditation in the forests, or a life of teaching, preaching, propagating the Dharma as a result of the activities of the teaching monks, seats of learning arose. These seats of monastic learning (Pirivenas) gradually developed and some of them became full-fledged universities. As a result Buddhist India came to have five major universities which achieved wide fame. These five were 1. Nalanda, 2. Vickramasila, 3. Odantapuri, 4. Jagadalala and 5. Somapura."

Link: https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha240.htm

51

Why go back to the Old Testament?

by Lost in the fog in

why do jws insist on still quoting from the old testament to back up some of their wacky ideas?

such as on blood, beards, abortion, tattoos, etc.

surely if the mosaic law code was nailed to the torture stake all of its parts were cancelled.

fulltimestudent

TTWSYF Where are you getting your info that says Islam brought these things to the world?

Well, one source you could investigate is the U.S. National Library of Medicine. On one web-page that source says:

"The hospital was one of the great achievements of medieval Islamic society. The relation of the design and development of Islamic hospitals to the earlier and contemporaneous poor and sick relief facilities offered by some Christian monasteries has not been fully delineated. Clearly, however, the medieval Islamic hospital was a more elaborate institution with a wider range of functions.

In Islam there was generally a moral imperative to treat all the ill regardless of their financial status. The hospitals were largely secular institutions, many of them open to all, male and female, civilian and military, adult and child, rich and poor, Muslims and non-Muslims. They tended to be large, urban structures.

The Islamic hospital served several purposes: a center of medical treatment, a convalescent home for those recovering from illness or accidents, an insane asylum, and a retirement home giving basic maintenance needs for the aged and infirm who lacked a family to care for them. It is unlikely that any truly wealthy person would have gone to a hospital for any purpose, unless they were taken ill while traveling far from home. Except under unusual circumstances, all the medical needs of the wealthy and powerful would have been administered in the home or through outpatient clinics dispensing drugs. Though Jewish and Christian doctors working in hospitals were not uncommon, we do not know what proportion of the patients would have been non-Muslim.

An Islamic hospital was called a bimaristan, often contracted to maristan, from the Persian word bimar, `ill person', and stan, `place.' Some accounts associate the name of the early Umayyad caliph al-Walid I, who ruled from 705 to 715 (86-96 H), with the founding of a hospice, possibly a leprosarium, in Damascus. Other versions, however, suggest that he only arranged for guides to be supplied to the blind, servants to the crippled, and monetary assistance to lepers.

The earliest documented hospital established by an Islamic ruler was built in the 9th century in Baghdad probably by the vizier to the caliph Harun al-Rashid. Few details are known of this foundation. There is no evidence to associate the construction of the earliest hospital with any of the Christian physicians from Gondeshapur in southwest Iran, but the prominence of the Bakhtishu` family as court physicians would suggest that they also played an important role in the function of the first hospital in Baghdad.

Link: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/islamic_medical/islamic_12.html

There's no need in today's world, to continue to be blinded by your credulity.

6

Was Jesus fully Human? How babies were made in those days.

by fulltimestudent in

i feel confident that most visitors to this site, understand the essential conflict at the heart of christianity.

how could jesus be fully human and simultaneously be a divine being who descended (supposedly, some thing jesus specifically claimed to be) from heaven.. as jws we may have solved this tricky point by saying that yahweh transferred the life of jesus into mary's womb, and so jesus was born fully human.. but if we remove the blindfold of faith, we immediately 'see' the problem.

in our contemporary view of the reproductive process, we can be certain that there is a female 'egg,' that is fertilised by male sperm.

fulltimestudent

Since then my understanding of the Hellenised world that Jesus grew up in has advanced a little further.

Why did the idea that YHWH could in some way impregnated the virgin Mary suddenly appear in Jewish thought?

We should remember that the proto-christianity taught by Jesus was entirely a product of Jewish thought, but a Jewish thought that had long been modified by a prolonged (hundreds of years) influence by the then dominant Hellenic (Greek) thought.

In Hellenic thought there were many examples of Gods (Divine beings) impregnating human women, resulting in semi-divine off-spring.

Surely an easy leap to claiming something similar in Jewish thought. And, therefore easy for Jesus to think that he had a semi-divine life.

fulltimestudent

Posts by fulltimestudent

Abstract

In find of ancient gold earring, echoes of Greek rule over Jerusalem

Hellenism[edit]