@Diogenesister:
After the Civil War and during reconstruction, before the racists took control of the state governments again, there was a period of time when blacks and whites interacted without laws mandating segregation. There were blacks that held high offices in all levels of government (senators, governors, etc). There was a black Governor of Louisiana of all places (where “separate but equal originated later”). Here is a list:
MeanMrMustard
JoinedPosts by MeanMrMustard
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
I found the video below interesting. It’s an hour long, but Woods goes through all of the opinions on the case.
Near the end he takes a position closer to freedom of association instead of private property - although those two freedoms/rights are closely related.
He makes a good point: why can’t we just base our interactions on the simple principle that we don’t initiate violence if someone doesn’t want to interact? And why would you want to enter into a business relationship if the other party doesn’t want to? This is similar to the point I made earlier - if you force bakers to interact, they will make you a horrible cake.
There are some interesting points made about the 14th amendment near the beginning.
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
To my point much earlier, look at Jim Crow laws, the GOVERNMENT enforced required segregation to hold back the market from NOT discriminating.
The usual narrative given to us is that society was permeated with racists, and the benevolent government stepped in and used the force of law for good, squashing all those segregationist dreams. In fact, it was the exact opposite.
Walter Williams used to make this point quite well. He would point out that you don’t need laws if society is segregating voluntarily. The Jim Crow laws came about from racist Democrats wanting to push back against the natural integration caused by free market voluntarism.
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
But there should be no place for discrimination in public, no matter how “sincerely held” their homophobia.
So you are OK enslaving people?
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
@scotsman:
Again, I would love for those people to advertise their viewpoints so I know exactly which businesses to avoid.
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
Looks very like a short term win for the baker if you read the grounds for the decision: it wasn't about protecting Masterpiece's right to freedom of religious belief but about the fact that Colorado was hostile to their religious views, describing them "despicable". It was this that was impermissible. The ruling does not settle the wider issues referred to in this thread.
In this case, true. Not to worry, however. The activists went to florists too.
If the USA were to allow bakers, photographers, MC, musicians, venues to say no to legal gay weddings on religious grounds, are they to post "Heterosexuals Only" in their shops and on their websites? I'd rather know than ask and be refused...
This could do whatever they want in this regard. They should not be forced to put any sign out. But if that floats their boat...
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
Every once in a while we get a thread about shunning, how the shunning practices of JWs have wrecked lives ( and they have ), and how morally reprehensible it is to shun loved ones. Then somewhere along the way, someone will say something like, “There should be a law against this. It should be illegal.”
Ten thread pages go by, begging people to see that a law against shunning would in fact be a disaster, and would in fact undermine one of the fundamental rights, freedom of association, that actually makes life livable.
“But it’s not right. It tears families apart. It’s wrong, they shouldn’t do that.”
Yeah, that’s right. They shouldn’t do that. But they do. To them it’s the right thing, and they choose freely to cut ties.
“But the Watchtower tells them to do it.”
Yeah, that’s right. And they choose to listen, and believe, and act on that with their own moral agency.
In the end, acting against them legally would undermine an actual freedom, an actual right. In the name of “rights”, the argument is made for giving up a fundamental right because.... they are assholes. And we shouldn’t have assholes in the world. It hurts, and of course the government is the best way to take care of that. Except it really isn’t. The entrenched dig in deeper.
Its the same for racists and sexists... and homophobes (the real kind, not the kind the left sees in every newborn boy).
And here we are, 10 pages later ( or more ).
People own their own bodies, their own labor, and the results of it. The only difference between a job and slavery is consent. You agree to sell you labor for a price because it’s your property to begin with. Each person has exclusive rights to their property.
And, sometimes people will choose to do crappy things with it.
“Yeah but it’s not right, it hurts people.”
Yeah, that’s right. But compelled service is slavery. Period.
It sucks, but the best way to beat the WT is through information and making the argument - convincing people over time. Same with these guys. Best way to deal with them is to go somewhere else.
And don’t take down fundamental rights ( private property ) just because there are mean people - nothing is worth it.
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
@Fink:
How does a business transaction imply loss of private property rights?
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
Another hypothetical situation ...Lets say a JWS opened their own cake shop but they refused to make cakes for Birthdays, Christmas, Mother's day, Father's day, same sex marriages, secular holidays or any religious affiliated celebrations.
Legal or not even though they held a public business license to operate in their community ?Perfectly fine. They own the property. I don’t see what a public business license has to do with it. Are you thinking that just because the state forced them to get a license, that now somehow the property becomes public and they lose ownership?
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286
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Baker Who Refused to Bake Cake for Gay Couple
by Simon inseems like such an obviously correct decision to overturn the previous overreach - it should never have been necessary to go to the supreme court but happened because the rights of the religious were being ignored.. as the fundamental level, no one should be able to compel you to work for them or to provide services that go against your beliefs, and certainly not have the government be able to force you to comply.. if this was allowed there would be so many unreconcilable situations that would clog up courts over nonsense.. i also have little patience for these activists that intentionally look to be offended.
it really doesn't do their cause any good to go round looking to make trouble for people.
it's also misguided because it ends up strengthening religious rights over effectively stupid issues.. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/us/politics/supreme-court-sides-with-baker-who-turned-away-gay-couple.html.
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MeanMrMustard
If a person doesn’t want to make a cake for a gay couple, even a generic one, and the person is then compelled by law, how do you think that will play out? Perhaps the person really is that asshole we all love to hate. It seems rather plausible that the asshole will make the cake, but make it taste horrible. Nothing unsanitary, just heavy on the turmeric and crab cakes. What now? Are you going to compel the baker to make “good” cakes? Should there be a “Department of Good Cakes” regulating the making of cakes?
Just let the baker do what he/she wants with his/her property. The business will go under, and the asshole will feel every painful loss of revenue as more and more customers go somewhere else.