Posts by djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@The Finger:

You must believe what you want and so must I. We shall both be judged.

You have the God-given right to believe what you want, even to believe lies if that is what you should choose to do. And, yes, it is a fact that we both shall be judged for the choices we make.

@Psacramento:

DJ, IF you are going to quote me, to NOT change what I wrote by bracketing my words ALA the NWT in Colossians, ok?

Here's the thing: Some of the people that have joined his forum and have posted messages to it are educated people, educated people like me. You are here equating my use of brackets in correcting your typos as akin to being in "NWT" style because you are lacking somewhere when it comes to education and you are sounding rather stupid to be chiding someone for their use of brackets in their posts because you never quite understood why such were inserted into the text of the NWT, and the text of the KJV, and the text of what Bible translation you might name, as brackets are used in all of these Bible translations for the very same reason that they are used in the NWT.

I won't tell you why brackets are used in the NWT, but I used them in quoting you for a very different reason that such are used in the NWT. Perhaps it would be good for you to ask someone that you respect the reason or maybe you could just visit a community college somewhere (assuming that you at least have a high school diploma!) and take a class in English grammar, which would be better than your remaining in your current state of literacy. I readily admit that I'm a bad typist -- I'm the typo king! -- but what excuse do you have really for the illiteracy you exhibit? Did you have to quit high school or elementary school to take employment somewhere in order to take care of your siblings or what? Or do you even have an excuse?

@djeggnog wrote:

The Bible teaches that in the past, Jehovah used angels to communicate with men (Hebrews 1:1, 2), but among men He raised up many prophets to speak on His behalf, and, really, except for the archangel that God sent to us, the Lord Jesus Christ, the greatest prophet among men that has ever lived here on earth, they were all of them imperfect men, but all of these men that prophesied, all represented Jehovah, all spoke in Jehovah's name, as did Jesus, as did Paul, as did Russell, as even do I. When I speak the words of God in your hearing, @Essan, it is [...] not I that is speaking, but you should know that it is Jehovah that is speaking to you.

@Psacramento wrote:

Do you see nothing wrong with what you wrote here?

@quietlyleaving wrote:

What other reason could there possibly be for your words above?

My words (quoted above) were by way of response to something that the OP (@Essan here) had written in connection with Russell being a false prophet and by extension Jehovah's Witnesses due to @Essan's belief that Jehovah's Witnesses are really preaching "another good news" and not the good news of the kingdom of God. By this, @Essan referencing certain verbiage from scriptures like Galatians 1:6-9, scriptures that he thinks he understands, to accuse me of being "accursed" in what I have said here, all in furtherance of his anti-Russell "doctrine," he questions the veracity of the work that I do in connection with God's kingdom.

I only wanted to point out to these two men (to @Essan and to Psacramento) that I do not speak of my own originality in the things I have said here with respect to Russell's being a prophet of God, but sough to point out to him that whenever I should find myself using the Bible to explain to someone, as did the apostle Paul, why "it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead" (Acts 17:3), by my quoting from the Bible, I may be prophesying, that is to say, I may be uttering the inspired word of God as God's prophet, but it is through me that God speak. Jehovah has always has used messengers -- both angelic and human -- as spokespeople to carry His message to the people to whom it is directed. But now, as Paul goes on to say at Acts 17:30, God is now "telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent" through his Christian servants.

It is through men like Russell and through other people as we; that Jehovah raised up by means of His spirit to help us to appreciate the meaning of the Scriptures, which enables us to help others to appreciate these things, to become reconciled to God through Christ, to dedicate themselves to God to do His will and get baptized, which is the work that the Lord Jesus Christ has given all of his followers to do.

I added:

And just as folks received the apostle Paul as if he were "an angel of God, like Christ Jesus" (Galatians 4:14), my hope, @Essan, is that you will receive me as you would that chief angel of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and give some thought to what you're going to do before the end comes.

Now you say:

well i find I can agree with many of the points you are now making DJeggnog - as your faith, and the experience you describe, and where it takes you, sounds okay but only so long as you don't see this as a reason to tell others what they must adhere to.

But as a servant of God, I must tell others to what they must adhere by way of the Bible since it is my charge to "preach the word, [to] be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, [to] reprove, to reprimand, to exhort, with all long-suffering and art of teaching." (2 Timothy 4:2) No, I don't say that I am 'the master over anyone's faith,' for in truth it is by means of one's own faith that one either stands or falls to Jehovah, but, as a member of God's household, I work for Jehovah, I dwell in God's spiritual house rendering sacred service to Him "day and night." (2 Corinthians 1:24; Revelation 7:15)

If one has faith in God and in His word, then they will listen to my word and know that what things I say to them are what Jehovah Himself says to all of us in His word, the Bible, so if anyone should observe Jesus' words, they, in turn will observe my word also, which is why Jesus made request for those putting faith in him through my word, through the word of his disciples. (John 15:20; 17:20) Hence, if I should speak, if I should prophesy, it is not I that is speaking, but is Jehovah that speaks, for it is His word that I am speaking.

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@The Finger:

Although you emphasized the words in the 1968 WT. Perhaps, could, would, remember that this is six years later, time is running out.

I believe I understand exactly what this 1968 Watchtower was saying and not saying, but I submit that you did not understand it to be making certain hypothetical allusions -- which is what this article you read back in 1968 was doing! -- so that it is clear to me that you concluded from you evidently read in that Watchtower article, or in one of the other WTS publications, to have actually supplanted what the Bible itself says at Matthew 24:36.

Please listen to what I am saying to you here, and this is me speaking to you, and not the Lord: Jehovah's Witnesses do not go beyond the things that are written in the Bible (1 Corinthians 4:6) so as to alter the inspired word of God, and should any one of them do that, we do not hesitate to tell the one that has gone beyond the things that have been written (a) that the Bible doesn't support their statement, and (b) that they ought not be teaching things that the Bible itself does not say.

IOW if the Bible doesn't say "Armageddon is coming in the year 1975," then you should not be assuming Jesus' words at Matthew 24:36 ("Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.") to mean something inapposite to what Jesus actually did say in this verse, nor should you assume that because one of Jehovah's Witnesses may be an elder or circuit or district overseer, or a member of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses that he is obliged to contradict Jesus' words at Matthew 24:36 and positively state that "Armageddon is coming in 1975" or in any other year, when you yourself know that from your having read the Bible yourself that no one knows "that day and hour" when the end will come.

Do not permit yourself to be "bedazzled" by someone position of responsibility with God's organization for no one that would undermine or contradict anything that God's word states should be taken seriously. There are many Jehovah's Witnesses today that are just like you that will read something in one of our publications that causes them some concern as to what it means and will either rely upon their own understanding of what they've read (Proverbs 3:5) or they will ask someone else as ignorant as they are about the matter that has caused them some concern, and take such agreement as fact. This is why Jesus said that "at the mouth of two or three witnesses" is a matter to be established." (Matthew 18:16)

One of these second or third witnesses does not have to be an appointed servant, but can be a spiritually mature sister or a spiritually mature brother in the congregation, or it could be a circuit overseer.

The statement "Evening of seventh creative day begins,4026 BCE." backed up by "morning of the seventh creative day begins, 526 BCE." page 131 of the Gods Eternal Purpose book.

And...?

"The first half or "evening" period of God's seventh creative "day" was now closing, 3,500 years from creation of Adam and EVE. The morning of this creative "day" was due to begin at 526 BCE."

And so...?

No "perhaps" and you made the point how the "truth" is what is currently taught and that is what was current in 1974/5

The truth is the truth and that is never going to change. But what may change is our understanding of it, for if we should find that we are mistaken about something, we would not behave as if our former understanding were correct, would we? For example, if you should run out of gas late at night in a location some four miles away from the nearest gas station, you would certainly not walk two miles in the opposite direction toward a gas station that you know has been closed for months because that gas station is two miles closer than the other gas station, would you? No, for you will have added an additional four miles to what would have been a four-mile trek to the nearest gas station for a total of eight miles, wouldn't you?

The truth is that the nearest gas station is four miles away so once you realize what the truth is, you would not hold on to your former understanding of what you thought had been the truth, but would abandon what you had formerly believed to have been the truth in order to hold on to what you know to be the truth.

If you knew from your reading of the Bible that no one could have possibly known the "day and hour," then you should not have believed what you had understood from what you read in this Watchtower article or this other WTS publication, the God's Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing book, to have been saying to have actually been saying what it is what that you concluded it to have been saying. When in doubt, when something you hear doesn't sound right, then you should ask someone to explain the matter to you as if you were a two year old so that you can be sure that you aren't being misled by someone enthusiasm during a public talk or a convention part or by your own inherent ability to be able to comprehend everything that you read correctly. (Acts 8:31)

@djeggnog wrote:

The Bible teaches that in the past, Jehovah used angels to communicate with men (Hebrews 1:1, 2), but among men He raised up many prophets to speak on His behalf, and, really, except for the archangel that God sent to us, the Lord Jesus Christ, the greatest prophet among men that has ever lived here on earth, they were all of them imperfect men, but all of these men that prophesied, all represented Jehovah, all spoke in Jehovah's name, as did Jesus, as did Paul, as did Russell, as even do I. When I speak the words of God in your hearing, @Essan, it is [...] not I that is speaking, but you should know that it is Jehovah that is speaking to you.

@Essan wrote:

Wow. Just wow. Have you seen the film "Defendor" Dj?

Why? What possible connection could there possibly be to my having watched a particular movie (or not watched a particular movie!) with your listening to what things God says through His word, the Bible?

@djeggnog wrote:

Yes, I see "nothing wrong" with what I wrote. I'm 100% fine with what things I wrote in my previous post. Well, sort of. After I posted that message, I began to realize that I had wished to [have] added the following to what it was I posted:

"The Bible teaches that in the past, Jehovah used angels to communicate with men (Hebrews 1:1, 2), but among men He raised up many prophets to speak on His behalf, and, really, except for the archangel that God sent to us, the Lord Jesus Christ, the greatest prophet among men that has ever lived here on earth, they were all of them imperfect men, but all of these men that prophesied, all represented Jehovah, all spoke in Jehovah's name, as did Jesus, as did Paul, as did Russell, as even do I. When I speak the words of God in your hearing, @Essan, it is [...] not I that is speaking, but you should know that it is Jehovah that is speaking to you."

@Psacramento wrote:

That is the beginning of your problems, that [you] do NOT see [anything] wrong with it.

Ok.

Paul and Jesus NEVER spoke God's name, there is NO evidence of that at all, no [matter how much] YOU may want it to be.

Ok.

God speaks through Jesus, always has and always will and Jesus speaks to Us, all of us, none of us are any more special than another, we just have to listen.

Ok.

FOr you to THINK that Jesus was an archangel is enough proof that Jesus does NOT speak through you, sorry.

Ok.

@djeggnog wrote:

What I say here to @Essan, I say also to you, @Psacramento.

@Psacramento wrote:

My Friend, my relationship with Christ, the ONLY [anointed] of God and the only begotten Son of God, is and has been for some time, more than it seems you can understand at this [point], but I pray your eyes and ears are opened to Jesus, for only in His name is their [salvation] for Christians and it is TO HIM and HIS name that we are to be [witness] to.

Ok.

You are not speaking for God but in your saying that you are, you are [blaspheming] against the Holy Spirit and my God and Jesus [will not] forgive you for that.

Ok.

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@peacedog wrote:

Every student of Watchtower history knows that Russell predicted the "parousia" for 1874 and the COMPLETE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE KINGDOM for 1914.

@djeggnog wrote:

Yes and yes. And you know what? The man called it! The Messianic kingdom of God was established at the end of the Gentile Times. And when did those Gentile Times end? You tell me.

The first "yes," is because I don't want to quibble any longer over the word "predicted" as this word is understood here, which I've pointed out several times now, is viewed as being synonymous with "determined" or "calculated," and the second "yes" requires no explanation.

@peacedog wrote:

His mission (like his cult masters) is to deceive people.

@djeggnog wrote:

No, my mission is to save people [from] those of Satan's agents that would deceive and mislead them, transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. (2 Corinthians 4:4) I am a minister of righteousness; God's righteousness, but whose minister are you?

You caught another one of my typos. Good for you!

Explain, if you possibly can, how "God's Messianic Kingdom", in all of its invisibleness, is now "trampling...these Gentile nations"

Sure.

It was in 1914 that the time had come for those same Gentile nations that had been responsible, since 607 BC, for trampling upon the kingdom of God as represented by the royal descendant of King David's sitting representatively on God's throne in Jerusalem, and when they had further trampled Jerusalem upon Jesus' being fastened to a tree by Roman soldiers and put to death, to terminate, and for the God's Messianic Kingdom to start trampling upon the Gentiles nations and be placed as a stool for the feet of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Jehovah Himself has proceeded to make the Gentile nations the footstool for the feet of our Messianic King Jesus, and they will all of them be destroyed when Jesus and his angels wages war against them at Armageddon. In 1914 began the time for our Messianic king to 'go subduing in the midst of his enemies,' which Jesus has, in fact, been doing. Since 1914, the majority of the God's "chosen one" have come out of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, firstly, out of anti-typical "Jerusalem," Christendom, and the rest from pagandom. And since 1935, a vast, but unnumbered "great crowd" has also come out of Babylon the Great, principally Christendom, who have a favorable standing before God's throne and are now looking forward to becoming the nucleus of the new earth after the present system of things goes down in destruction at Armageddon.

Jehovah's Witnesses pray on behalf of God's kingdom and they do not pray on behalf of this world that is alienated from God. As their faith over the years attests, they have walked courageously in Jesus' footsteps, standing firm in the face of ridicule, persecution, arrest, imprisonment, torture and even death based on power beyond that which is normal, based on God's spirit. (2 Corinthians 4:7; Philippians 4:13)

Despite all of these things, Jehovah has brought spiritual glory to His worshippers here on earth, which really goes to Jehovah's honor and glory, and Jehovah's Witnesses, as those who are worshippers of the true God, Jehovah, we shall not only see God's salvation, but "length of days" as well. (Psalm 91:15, 16)

Although forced to endure much persecuted in Germany under Adolf Hitler's Third Reich, for example, it was by means of God's spirit that Jehovah's Witnesses were victorious after some 12 years of Nazi rulership, and, with an unbroken spirit, they triumphantly resumed the proclamation about God's Messianic Kingdom in lands that had formerly been controlled by Hitler. See, Christ Jesus is now trampling the nations! We declare to politicians, to judges, to the police, as did the apostles: "We must obey God as ruler rather than men," for the nations are no longer permitted to trample upon God's Messianic Kingdom that began its rule in 1914, and while recognizing the relative authority of human governments, God's Messianic Kingdom is the absolute government and the Lord Jesus Christ the only king that Jehovah's Witnesses recognize today. (Acts 5:29)

The ones that are occupying that "secret place of the Most High" are those that have unequivocally come out in favor of Jehovah's universal sovereignty and, as integrity keepers, it is Jehovah's Witnesses that are making the issue of Universal Sovereignty clear to all of the nations, so that people are no longer being trampled upon by the nations, and they have not only maintained Christian neutrality toward the conflicts of the worldly nations, but are the ones that are avoiding every form of idolatry. (Psalm 91:1)

What is more, you can actually see Jehovah's Witnesses; we are not invisible at all.

@djeggnog wrote:

And just as folks received the apostle Paul as if he were "an angel of God, like Christ Jesus" (Galatians 4:14), my hope, @Essan, is that you will receive me as you would that chief angel of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and give some thought to what you're going to do before the end comes.

@Psacramento wrote:

Do you see nothing wrong with what you wrote here?

Yes, I see "nothing wrong" with what I wrote. I'm 100% fine with what things I wrote in my previous post. Well, sort of. After I posted that message, I began to realize that I had wished to had added the following to what it was I posted:

"The Bible teaches that in the past, Jehovah used angels to communicate with men (Hebrews 1:1, 2), but among men He raised up many prophets to speak on His behalf, and, really, except for the archangel that God sent to us, the Lord Jesus Christ, the greatest prophet among men that has ever lived here on earth, they were all of them imperfect men, but all of these men that prophesied, all represented Jehovah, all spoke in Jehovah's name, as did Jesus, as did Paul, as did Russell, as even do I. When I speak the words of God in your hearing, @Essan, it is it not I that is speaking, but you should know that it is Jehovah that is speaking to you."

What I say here to @Essan, I say also to you, @Psacramento.

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@cantleave wrote to djeggnog:

Well eggnog - how have we seen that come true since 1914? In context with history - how has the period 1914 until now witnessed a disintegration of the rule of imperfect men?

@djeggnog wrote to cantleave:

My goodness! Are you telling me that you are not aware of the fact that based upon the proclamation that has been made by Jehovah's Witnesses since 1914 in announcing God's Messianic Kingdom by Christ Jesus of how many people have dedicated their lives to God and become proclaimers themselves of the good news of the kingdom? Jehovah's Witnesses are those that recognize theocratic rulership over human rulership, so that they give their allegiance to earth's rightly ruler, Christ Jesus, as their king, in full submission to their God, Jehovah.

@Essan wrote:

Excuse me DJ, you seem to imply here that JW's have been uniformly proclaiming Christ as becoming King in 1914 since 1914, which is not true, as you well know. At least until 1929, and possibly much longer, the JW's proclaimed Christ's kingship as beginning in 1874. So, they were preaching a lie for the first 50 years as well as acting as False Prophets for considerably longer. They were and are also preaching "another good news", rather than the good news of the Kingdom which Jesus commanded and which the 1st century Christians preached, for which the penalty according to Paul is to be "accursed" - but if you want to crow about this Satanic career of the JW's DJ, then go ahead, but preferably not in this thread, because it's off topic.

Actually, I believe I am on topic here, for what I am discussing here is by way of expanding upon the topic that you began here in this thread re Russell's "prediction" of 1914 as being when the Gentile Times would come to an end. I'm not willing to play a game of semantics over whether what Russell did was made a calculation of the year 1914 based on his reckoning 2,520 years from the year 607 BC or whether what he did was make a prediction of the year 1914.

Maybe you have allowed yourself to be stumbled over the fact that Russell was imperfect and may have said a lot of things when he was alive , which things Jehovah's Witnesses today know weren't accurate, but we praise Jehovah for having used that imperfect man in helping the rest of Jehovah's Witnesses to understand that Jesus Christ is now ruling in heaven as king! Many of us have prayed for God's kingdom to come without knowing for what it was we were praying, but it is through men like Russell and other people that Jehovah raised up by means of His spirit to help you to appreciate its meaning that we are now able to help others to appreciate these things, become reconciled to God through Christ and dedicate themselves to God to do His will and get baptized, which is the work that the Lord Jesus Christ has given all of his followers to do.

And you know what, @Essan? We are going to do it until Jehovah says "Enough!"

And just as folks received the apostle Paul as if he were "an angel of God, like Christ Jesus" (Galatians 4:14), my hope, @Essan, is that you will receive me as you would that chief angel of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and give some thought to what you're going to do before the end comes.

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@The Finger:

On page 271 of the 1968 Watchtower it explained how naming of the animals by Adam "would have occupied only a brief time". The creation of Eve, "he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just weeks or months later in the same year, 4026 BCE. After her creation, God's rest day, the seventh period, immediately followed."

Perhaps one of the things you might notice in the more recent publications produced by the WTS is in the writing style of the articles that take into consideration the fact that there are folks that read these articles, but do not understand when what they are reading is a narrative based on what possibilities might exist in a particular scenario. I recognize right away that this paragraph to which you refer here reads much like a prosecutor's opening statement. Here's a bit of the text of a Los Angeles County prosecutor, Christopher Darden. I'm not posting this because I know the guy; I nay have met and spoken with him a couple of times, but he was living in Torrance, California, back in 1995, and for all I know he still does, and I live in Los Angeles, California, and we both travel in different circles, but we both drink a lot of coffee and we happened to have been patrons of the same coffee shop. This excerpt is from Darden's opening statement on January 24, 1995, in Department 103 of the Los Angeles Superior Court, the Honorable Lance A. Ito, judge presiding, in "The People of the State of California v. Orenthal James Simpson," also known as the "OJ criminal case." I want you to please take notice of what Darden says during the following excerpt from his opening statement, and maybe you'll see what those on the Writing Committee do when writing many of the articles that appear in the Watchtower magazine.

NOW, WE'RE HERE TODAY OBVIOUSLY TO RESOLVE AN ISSUE, TO SETTLE A QUESTION, A QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN ON THE MINDS OF PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY THESE LAST SEVEN MONTHS. IT CERTAINLY HAS BEEN ON THE MINDS OF MY PEOPLE UP IN RICHMOND, CALIFORNIA AND FRIENDS IN FAYETTEVILLE, GEORGIA AND ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

EVERYBODY WANTS TO KNOW AND EVERYBODY I KNOW OFTEN POSE A QUESTION TO ME, DID O.J. SIMPSON REALLY KILL NICOLE BROWN AND RONALD GOLDMAN.

WELL, FINALLY, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I AM HERE IN FRONT OF YOU THIS MORNING TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION. AND WE'LL ANSWER THAT QUESTION FROM THE WITNESS STAND AND FROM THE EXHIBITS YOU'LL SEE IN THIS CASE AND FROM THE EVIDENCE.

AND WHEN YOU SEE THE EVIDENCE AND WHEN YOU HEAR THE WITNESSES AND WHEN YOU PUT IT ALL TOGETHER AND CONSIDER THE TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES IN THIS CASE, THE ANSWER WILL BE CLEAR TO YOU AS WELL.

THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS YES. THE EVIDENCE WILL SHOW THAT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS YES, O.J. SIMPSON MURDERED NICOLE BROWN AND RONALD GOLDMAN. AND I'M SURE YOU WILL BE WONDERING WHY AS THE TRIAL PROCEEDS ON AND I'M SURE YOU ARE WONDERING WHY RIGHT NOW.

AS THE JUDGE INSTRUCTED YOU ALREADY, OPENING STATEMENTS ARE NOT EVIDENCE. OPENING STATEMENTS ARE GIVEN BY LAWYERS. AND IN AN OPENING STATEMENT, WE INFORM THE JURY OF WHAT WE THINK THE EVIDENCE WILL SHOW IN THIS CASE, WHAT WE BELIEVE THE EVIDENCE WILL SHOW.

BUT WE'RE LAWYERS. WE'RE NOT WITNESSES. WE'RE NOT UNDER OATH. NOTHING WE SAY IS EVIDENCE. THE THINGS WE SAY TO YOU TODAY ARE NOT THE THINGS THAT YOU SHOULD CARRY INTO THE JURY ROOM AND INTO DELIBERATIONS.

YOU SHOULD CARRY INTO THE JURY ROOM AND INTO YOUR DELIBERATIONS THE EVIDENCE IN THE CASE, THE TESTIMONY FROM THE WITNESS STAND, THE EXHIBITS ADMITTED AT TRIAL, THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO YOU BY THE COURT. AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THAT, WHEN YOU GO BACK AND REFLECT ON THE TESTIMONY AND THE EXHIBITS AND EVERYTHING YOU HEARD AND SAW IN THIS CASE, YOU WILL KNOW WHY HE KILLED NICOLE BROWN AND RONALD GOLDMAN.

Just as "opening statements are not evidence," neither does what one reads in the Watchtower constitute evidence. It's just a statement of opinion; a statement of belief. The Watchtower presents scriptural evidence when it quotes from the Bible, and those statements are the inspired statements, not those of any man, but those of Jehovah God, and all true servants of God have faith that these statements reflect God's spirit, reflect God's decisions on the matter to which they refer, this spirit of God being the evidence, the truth upon which we can rely, while any other written statements that go beyond God's written statements are merely the opinions of men.

Darden says that "in an opening statement, we inform the jury of what we think the evidence will show in this case, what we believe the evidence will show," and that is all the Watchtower does is present the evidence and comment upon what Jehovah's Witnesses believe the evidence will prove or show. However, the statements made in the Watchtower are not the inspired of God, so when you quote one or more of them to "prove" something, you need to keep in mind that only God's inspired statements -- the statements quoted from the Bible -- are the evidence. Any statement that goes beyond God's own statements are opinions ostensibly that may only expand upon or extrapolate conclusions based on God's spirit.

Darden also says. "We're lawyers. We're not witnesses. We're not under oath. Nothing we say is evidence. The things we say to you today are not the things that you should carry into the jury room and into deliberations." The same thing is true about the things you read in the Watchtower, for if you should imagine any uninspired statement you should read in the Bible to be on a par with the inspired statements found in the Bible, then you would, in fact, be putting the Watchtower in the place of the Bible, and I happen to work in the legal field and so it would be imprudent for me to supplant God's spirit for the spirit of man, the inspired decisions of Jehovah as are found in God's word, the Bible, for the uninspired personal opinions of men. I'm telling you here that you shouldn't do this either.

Here's that paragraph to which you referred, but with certain words emphasized in it:

Adam WOULD realize this lonely condition very quickly, PERHAPS in just a few days or a few weeks. He WOULD realize he needed another earthling with whom he COULD communicate, share his experiences, and his life. Nor WOULD his naming the animals take an unduly long time. The basic animal kinds COULD have been relatively quickly named, for when such basic kinds were taken into the ark in Noah’s day, it did not involve millions of beasts, but PERHAPS only a few hundred basic kinds. Thus, Adam’s naming of the animals and his realizing that he needed a counterpart WOULD have occupied only a brief time after his creation. Since it was also Jehovah’s purpose for man to multiply and fill the earth, IT IS LOGICAL THAT he would create Eve soon after Adam, PERHAPS just a few weeks or months later in the same year, 4026 B.C.E. After her creation, God’s rest day, the seventh period, immediately followed.

Honesty about this stills seems to be lacking in the organization. This was one of the main points discussed with the Elder a few years ago that resulted in him talking badly of me from the platform. It was a point [referred] to by the last Elder who visited me at the outset of the conversation on the new understanding of the generation and how we wouldn't want to be like those in 1975 who were looking to dates and selfishly left. When in reality they stumbled over a false teaching.

Perhaps this is true and you were stumbled over a false teaching, but that "false teaching" did not come from the Bible, did not come from Jehovah, did not come from the God's Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing book, but came from the failed on the part of that elder to whom you refer here to explain what it is I am telling you today. This has nothing at all to do with dishonest, not really. Some of our elders have a high school education; some of them dropped out and do not have such and are learning some of the concepts related to reading comprehension that perhaps you, too, need to learn; I don't know.

Some of our elders have college degrees and work in a professional capacity like I do, but even some of them might have become accustomed to stretching the truth a bit to make their points so that they do not even realize it when they are misleading others with what does not accord with the truth at all. My point here is that no one is perfect. I'm not perfect, as you can tell from my many typos here, but where I am qualified to teach even as are other elders, qualified to teach, many of us have limitations based on their knowledge of the truth, I have mine and they have their's.

All of what I am now telling you here, @The Finger, may be new to you, "new" in the sense that no one has ever discussed such things with you, but I do so now, because I do not want you to be forever stumbled and end up losing your life because you feel that someone misled you or stumbled you. Jesus is going to ultimately judge you for what you and I are doing or not doing, but it would behoove you, I think, to take a right viewpoint, and return to the truth. Your very life depends on your making the right decision.

@peacedog:

Every student of Watchtower history knows that Russell predicted the "parousia" for 1874 and the COMPLETE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE KINGDOM for 1914.

Yes and yes. And you know what? The man called it! The Messianic kingdom of God was established at the end of the Gentile Times. And when did those Gentile Times end? You tell me.

His mission (like his cult masters) is to deceive people.

No, my mission is to save people for those of Satan's agents that would deceive and mislead them, transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. (2 Corinthians 4:4) I am a minister of righteousness; God's righteousness, but whose minister are you?

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@cantleave:

Well eggnog - how have we seen that come true since 1914? In context with history - how has the period 1914 until now witnessed a disintegration of the rule of imperfect men?

My goodness! Are you telling me that you are not aware of the fact that based upon the proclamation that has been made by Jehovah's Witnesses since 1914 in announcing God's Messianic Kingdom by Christ Jesus of how many people have dedicated their lives to God and become proclaimers themselves of the good news of the kingdom? Jehovah's Witnesses are those that recognize theocratic rulership over human rulership, so that they give their allegiance to earth's rightly ruler, Christ Jesus, as their king, in full submission to their God, Jehovah.

At present, there are some 7,124,443 publishers of the good news today, who have decided to reconcile themselves to God and are actually the ones doing the work of announcing God's Messianic Kingdom so that others might join them in doing so as well, since Jehovah's Witnesses want to realize their prospect of becoming the nucleus of the new earth and be among those that the apostle John sees in his vision at Revelation 7:14 "[coming] out of the great tribulation."

Believe me, @cantleave, for these worshippers of Jehovah, the rule of imperfect men has disintegrated, and if you don't change course very soon and take up worship of the true God, Jehovah, and stop worshipping the Devil, who accepts all worship that is not based on truth, you will surely perish, and become like an outer garment, wrapped up and changed, and the only thing that'll be in your future is eternal death. (Hebrews 1:11, 12; Matthew 10:28)

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@Essan:

DJ, everything you just wrote is irrelevant to this topic.

Ok.

@djeggnog wrote:

In both of these quotes, you contend that a kingdom cannot come without its king, correct? Well, tell me this what happened when, in the year 1914, invisible to human eyes, the kingdom of God became established in the heavens, with Jesus actually coming into his kingdom, which event has been discerned by Christians? You well know that from the beginning until January 1, 1939, the Watchtower had changed its banner from "And Herald of Christ's Presence," since Russell had, since 1874, considered Jesus' presence as having begun in 1874, to "Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom," in March 1, 1939, in acknowledgment of the fact that Jehovah had taken His "great power and begun ruling as king" representatively through His Son, Jesus Christ, in fulfillment of Revelation 11:17 when Jesus came into his kingdom in 1914.

@Essan wrote:

Again I have to ask, are you really that stupid or is this another ham-fisted attempt at deceptive 'sleight of hand' to fool unwary readers?

Please answer the question:

Tell me this what happened when, in the year 1914, invisible to human eyes, the kingdom of God became established in the heavens, with Jesus actually coming into his kingdom, which event has been discerned by Christians?

If you do not have an answer or you feel uncomfortable answering this question, then you should not do so. This is not a "sleight of hand" on my part. What this is IMO is evasion on your part, an unwillingness to bring reasonableness to the table and a desire -- again on your part -- to obfuscate the issue that I am raising in response to your "interest" in Pastor Russell's beliefs as if those beliefs are relevant to Jehovah's Witnesses today. What's relevant, in my view, @Essan, is that you find a place to put this anger and bitterness that has you out here making an issue out of a non-issue when you know good and well that absolutely no human being can predict the future with any degree of accuracy. Jehovah is the true God; He is the only One that can accurately do so. No human is able to do so, and you know this is true, which is why you keep beating the proverbial horse here about what I call a non-issue regarding Russell.

An entire chapter in the book you brought forward for consideration in this thread -- the Time is at Hand book -- is called "The Times of the Gentiles," and if one actually sits and reads this chapter without a predisposition to believe it to be a chapter that predicts a future event, then it will be clear that the language that Russell uses in this chapter alone provided only a supposition as to what will follow the end of these Gentile Times in 1914, but he leaves no doubt that he is convinced of the conviction that the date 1914 is a date that anyone can calculate for himself or herself being exactly 2,520 years after the Gentile Times began! He hopes that what he calls the "Gospel age" will end and the "Millennial age" will begin in 1914, but he doesn't pretend to know what's going to happen in 1914.

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D.: 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove Firstly....

This is what Time is at Hand actually says, and specifically where we read the words --

and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men.

-- or instead should read the words --

and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men.

-- the point being made -- and I really don't want you to miss it, @Essan -- is that the year 1914 is when "the kingdom of the world" became "the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ [Jesus], and he will rule as king forever and ever," And the Time is at Hand book says "if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures," the operative word there being "if," in case you missed it, then "it will prove Firstly..., Secondly..., Thirdly...," and so forth. Russell writes "if" because we isn't able to predict what will occur when the Gentile Times had come to an end, but if what he had said "is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures," then blah, blah, blah. I the English language, the word "if" introduces a hypothetic clause conditioned on the conditions expressed being true. Get it?

Jesus made the point in his prophecy at Matthew 24:3, 14, that it would be during his invisible presence as king that this good news of the kingdom of God, which is now established, would be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" of Jehovah's Messianic kingdom by Christ Jesus and this very prophecy is being fulfilled today by Jehovah's Witnesses! We are, in fact, proclaiming to all that Christ is now present in Kingdom power and we make no bones about that! Jehovah had set a fixed time -- "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men" -- a fixed time when "the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men" would come to an end, for Jesus has already conquered in heaven by stretching his rod of strength out against the chief enemy of God's Messianic Kingdom in casting Satan and his demons down to the earth, and thus cleansing the heavens of his rebellious spirit, but whose ouster had brought great woe to the earth, for Satan now knows that but "a short period of time" remains before his abyssing by Jesus. (Psalm 110:2; Revelation 12:9-12)

The time for the Gentile nations' trampling God's Messianic Kingdom is over and now God's Messianic Kingdom is doing the trampling of these Gentiles nations whose rulership God had permitted until "the farthest limit," that is to say, at the full limit of the appointed times" to "gather all things together again in the Christ, ... the things on the earth." (Ephesians 1:10) Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones who, as ambassadors and envoys of the Messianic Kingdom, are announcing to all of the nations of the earth this incoming world government to which all now living must become reconciled as willing subjects, just as Jehovah's Witnesses are to it, for as the only rightly government that God has given authority since 1914 to take charge over the earth's affairs, it is important that all submit to the rulership of the Messianic Kingdom. (2 Corinthians 5:19, 20)

You are free to chatter with all of your might about the mistakes of Russell, but I'd rather you subject yourself to the doing of God's will because I'm telling you, man -- and I'm not joking around here -- your beef with Russell and with the WTS will not lead to reconciliation with God through Christ. You are just going to be numbered among earth's billions that are probably going to perish because they had not taken the necessary steps that would lead to their survival at Armageddon. You want to believe Armageddon isn't coming? That's fine, but is this a practical thing for you to believe what with all of the evidence all around us that suggests that the end is quite near?

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@Essan wrote quote:

If you take all of page 76 and page 77 of the The Time is At Hand in the original text, rather than the doctored text you quote, then it's perfectly blatant that Russell was predicting Christ would come in 1914. How can the Kingdom come on earth without [its] King coming?

@Essan also wrote quote:

I presented you with countless quotes besides this proving it. Russell proclaimed Christ to be "Present" from 1874 but he is clear that in 1914 he "will then be present" in a new capacity "as earth's new ruler". Thus, Russell predicted that, like the Kingdom Christians long prayed for, it's King would come in 1914. A Kingdom on earth coming without [its] King coming? I think not.

In both of these quotes, you contend that a kingdom cannot come without its king, correct? Well, tell me this what happened when, in the year 1914, invisible to human eyes, the kingdom of God became established in the heavens, with Jesus actually coming into his kingdom, which event has been discerned by Christians? You well know that from the beginning until January 1, 1939, the Watchtower had changed its banner from "And Herald of Christ's Presence," since Russell had, since 1874, considered Jesus' presence as having begun in 1874, to "Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom," in March 1, 1939, in acknowledgment of the fact that Jehovah had taken His "great power and begun ruling as king" representatively through His Son, Jesus Christ, in fulfillment of Revelation 11:17 when Jesus came into his kingdom in 1914.

Due to a misunderstanding, Russell had miscalculated the beginning of Jesus' presence as taking place two years after 4128 BC, when sin had entered upon the human family, or in the year 4126 BC. The beginning of the world had been wrongly calculated to be 4128 BC or AM 0 ("AM" meaning "Anno Mundi," the "Year of the World"), and so when moving forward 6,000 years from 4126 BC, we arrive at the year 1874, when Russell and his associates believed the seventh millennium would began.

What this meant here is that the year for the beginning of Jesus' reign, the year of Jesus' return as well as the beginning of Jesus' invisible presence or _parousia_ had been established in their minds as having been 1874. Not a few Jehovah's Witnesses are familiar with the history of Jehovah's Witnesses as it existed in the 1800s when Russell was the president of the WTS until his death in October 31, 1916, but the reason why on the front page of Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence from the July 1, 1906 issue through the September 15, 1928 issue appeared "July 1, A.D. 1906-A.M., 6034" and "Anno Mundi 6056—September 15, 1928," respectively. At the end of the Gentile Times in 1914, the anticipated glorification of the remnant of the church in the heavens did not occur, which disappointed many that had believed Russell's calculation as to when the seventh millennium would begin to be correct.

Russell had based his Bible chronology on what he described in The Time is at Hand book, at page 53, in referring to the reference, "the four hundred and eightieth year" at 1 Kings 6:1, as "possibly the mistake of a transcriber," and relying upon a footnoted suggestion in The Emphatic Diaglott on Acts 13:20, which indicated that "the text in 1 Kings 6:1 has been corrupted, by substituting the Hebrew character daleth (4) for hay (5) which is very similar in form. This would make 580 years (instead of 480) from the exode to the building of the temple, and exactly agree with Paul’s chronology"; thus, The Time is at Hand book says that "the Hebrew character "daleth" (4) very much resembles the character "hay" (5), and it is supposed that in this way the error has occurred," so it was concluded that 1 Kings 6:1 "should read five hundred and eighty, and thus be in perfect harmony with the other statements."

By the insertion of 100 years into the Bible chronology during the period of the Judges, man's creation was pushed back 100 years to 4128 BC, which meant that 6,000 years ended in 1872, and with an additional two years added for the entry of sin into the world, or 4126 BC, 6,000 years of sin would therefore terminate in 1874 BC, when the seventh millennial reign was expected to begin.

In 1943, the WTS published the book, The Truth Shall Make You Free," where in chapter 11, entitled "The Count of Time," the 100 years that Russell had inserted into the period of the Judges was rejected as an error that had been made in order to coincide with the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, so this adjustment impacted Russell's teaching that the beginning of his invisible presence or _parousia_ had begun in 1874, since it then became clear that this 6,000 years would instead end in the year 1975. Consequently, on page 215, paragraph 22, of the Watchtower dated July 15, 1949, the statement is made that "the Son of man ... came into Kingdom power A.D. 1914" and that this date constituted Jesus "second coming and the beginning of his second parousía or presence."

These miscalculations that were based on a misunderstanding of how 1 Kings 6:1 should rightly be rendered would have undoubtedly caused Russell to have come to very different conclusions that the ones he reached back in 1879 as to the significance of the year 1874 had he known, which, as it turns out, was not a significant year at all. However, Russell's calculation based on 1914 being when "the appointed times of the nations" (the "Gentile times") to which Jesus refers at Luke 21:24 would end was correct, and so Jehovah's Witnesses today teach that Jesus' invisible presence began in this year -- 1914 -- the same year in which the visible sign of Jesus' presence became evident with the outbreak of World War I in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy at Matthew 24:3, 7, 8, which Jesus described as being "a beginning of pangs of distress."

What I believe with all of this quibbling you and others here are doing with respect to what Russell believed or didn't believe before his death is that you have failed to appreciate the fact that God's kingdom is now ruling over Jehovah's Witnesses, for all Jehovah's Witnesses recognize God's established kingdom, and the authority of the one that God has anointed as king, whose rulership now "in the midst of his enemies" represents Jehovah God's sovereignty over the entire inhabited earth during the last days of this wicked system of things. (Psalm 110:2)

One other point I would make here:

In response to a question I was asked in another thread, if the year 1975 does mark the end of 6,000 years, then one would expect the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ to begin at the end of "the Gospel age," to use Russell's terminology, at the beginning of the last 1,000-year period of God's seventh rest day. But even if our calculation of 6,000 years should be 100% correct, what don't we know? Genesis 1:31 indicates that it was "after" the human pair had been created that God saw everything that he had made was very good, and only then did the sixth creative day come to an end.

So while we might be able to calculate when Adam was created -- 4026 BC -- what we do not know is when Eve was created. I'll tell you one thing that we do know in view of the fact that the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ has not yet begun: We know that in 2010, if 1975 accurately marks 6,000 years, that Eve's creation could not have been occurred any earlier than 35 years after Adam's creation, but how many years was it?

In saying what he did at Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ knew that we would not be able to calculate the "day and hour" because of one vital piece of information unknown to us and not revealed anywhere in the Bible: The date of Eve's creation. However, since Jesus would know when Eve was created, the reason he did not know the "day and hour" is apparent: Jehovah had decided not to reveal this information to His only-begotten son for some reason.

Therefore, we logically know in the year 2010 that Eve could not have been created any earlier than 35 years after Adam's creation, but what if Eve was created, say, just five years later or 40 years after Adam's creation, then that would logically mean that the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ will not occur until the year 2015. What if the Millennial reign of Christ Jesus should begin in the year 2015? Or earlier, like in the year 2012? We will see.

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@peacedog:

I know it's been awhile since we were both posting to the same thread, only this one has gotten a bit silly, IMO. Let's take a look at what you quoted regarding what you are calling "pre-1914" and "post-1914" quotes from The Time is at Hand book:

This quote contains what you have here referred to as "pre-1914" from the book:

The original (pre-1914) printing of The Time is at Hand reads: "...the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men." (pg 76-66)

And this quote contains what you have here referred to as "post-1914" from the book:

Later (post-1914) printings of The Time is at Hand read: "...the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men." (pg 76-66)

"In this chapter we will present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men...Firstly,That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come,"will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions. Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the domination will then be present as earth’s new Ruler..." - The Time Is at Hand (SS-2), 1907 ed., p. 76-78

@Essan indicates that he was quoting from the original release of this publication, but from the 1907 edition of the Time is at Hand book, and notice that he merges the text from two successive paragraphs together and that the words he underscores are "will then be present," ok?

Now the following quote is from both of these paragraphs:

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D.: 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men.

And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove Firstly, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions.

Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion

will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.

Focusing just on that portion of the quote from which @Essan quoted in his post indicated above in blue, which comes from the bottom of page 76 and the top of page 77 of the Time is at Hand book, do you see in either of these two quotes that you provided in your post anything to suggest that Russell was teaching that Jesus would come in 1914? Would you conclude from reading the words "will then be present" indicated above in green that Russell is referring to Jesus' presence or to Jesus' coming? IOW, assuming, arguendo, that what @Essan says is true about a "pre-1914" printing and a "post-1914" printing, is there anything here that you can see in either version of this quote that supports @Essan's contention that Russell is talking about Jesus' coming?

If you should be of the belief that Russell is referring to "Jesus' presence," then please explain your reasons for so concluding to @Essan, but if you should instead be of the belief that Russell is referring to "Jesus' coming," then please explain your reasons for so concluding to me, for this is how I responded to the first of Essan's questions:

@Essan wrote quote:

DJ, Would you have us believe that Russell taught that the long prayed for "Kingdom would come" in 1914, in [its] fullest possible sense, in the earth, but that Jesus would somehow not have "come"?

@djeggnog wrote wrote:

But Russell didn't teach that "[God's] Kingdom would come" in 1914, and nothing you quoted in your post from The Time is at Hand book even suggested such a thing. What Russell actually stated was that "the full end of the times of the Gentiles ... will be reached in AD: 1914" after which the rule of imperfect men would begin to disintegrate. He didn't predict that 1914 would be the end of the Gospel age, which would culminate in Armageddon, followed by the beginning of the Millennial age and Christ's rule, did he?

Russell says nothing to suggest that he was predicting Jesus' coming in 1914, which is what @Essan quoted this text from The Time is at Hand book to prove. But where is the proof? Do you see it? I do not.

@djeggnog also wrote quote:

Russell then goes on to say as to the end of the Gentile times in 1914 that "if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures," then it would prove that the kingdom would "shortly be "set up," in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions," and that "he whose right it is" -- referring to the Lord Jesus Christ -- "will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and ... that he will be present for a considerable period before that date".

@Essan quoted this text from The Time is at Hand book as proof that "Russell must have predicted and proclaimed 1914 to be the year of Christ's 'Coming,'" but what he quoted doesn't even come close to proving his contention? What do you think, @peacedog? What Russell did teach though was that in 1914, Jesus "will then be present as earth's new Ruler," and now that we know, according to the Bible at 1 Timothy 6:16, that Jesus "dwells in [an] unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see," his presence would have to be an invisible one.

@djeggnog

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

djeggnog

@Essan:

I read your latest posts, but I have no comment that I wish to make in response. I wanted to apologize though about the dead link in my previous post. Please use the following link to see the scan that I only just uploaded to my website that comes from the original book, The Time is at Hand, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2 (1889), "Study IV, The Times of the Gentiles," pp.76-78:

http://tinyurl.com/34mw9bt

Also, please note that I had originally failed to include a couple of pages that indicate the date of this publication is 1889, so these pages are now included in the file I've just now uploaded, so that if anyone should suggest that there have been any alterations or modifications made to the edition of The Time is at Hand, they are free to do so, and I will not posit an argument to the contrary, since my only goal here is to provide proof of what was written in the original 1889 release, and not invalidate anyone's claim that any alleged alterations or modifications were made after 1889.

I believe it to be not unknown that JWFacts.com provided information regarding WTS publications that may or may not be accurate, but I only feel responsible for the things I represent to you folks here.

@djeggnog