Posts by JosephAlward

39

Is the Flood Story True?

by JosephAlward in

those who have not yet relinquished their right to think for themselves should be virtually certain that the story of noah and the ark is a fable.

those who believe the bible's stories are literally true find it almost impossible to address with a straight face the problems presented below.. then the flood came which destroyed every living thing which was not in the ark: "and every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

" (genesis 7:23).

JosephAlward

How could it happen that there's so much confusion in the flood story regarding the number of animals and birds Noah was supposed to take with him?

The answer is that there are (at least) two different stories of the flood woven into one seemingly continuous story by an editor who alternated passages from two different authors. One of the stories was written by an author who referred to the deity exclusively as "God," never as "Lord," while the other story was written by an author who exclusively called the deity "Lord," but never "God." I will leave it to the interested reader to confirm this on their own (see, for example, http://members.aol.com/jalw/two_animals_or_seven.html).

The "God" author thought that Noah took two of each kind of animal, while the "Lord" author believed that seven were taken. You will see that in those blocks of text where "God" is the deity, the writer refers to "two," while in those blocks of text where "Lord" is used, there are seven animals.

As further evidence that there are two different authors at work, the readers may notice that the ONLY time the sons of Noah are mentioned is in the passages written by the author who called the deity "GOD." When the LORD author speaks of Noah's family, he never mentions sons.

It is just as easy to show that two or more authors contributed separate--and conflicting--accounts of the creation. I will discuss that in a future post. For a preview of what I will say, readers may go to http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/creationcontradictions.html.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

39

Is the Flood Story True?

by JosephAlward in

those who have not yet relinquished their right to think for themselves should be virtually certain that the story of noah and the ark is a fable.

those who believe the bible's stories are literally true find it almost impossible to address with a straight face the problems presented below.. then the flood came which destroyed every living thing which was not in the ark: "and every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

" (genesis 7:23).

JosephAlward

Pom writes: The apologists are ABSOLUTELY wrong. All one has to do is add the first pair of all birdies that were gathered up firstly, then add the latter seven pairs of all birdies that were commanded he take into the ark after the ark was completed, then any one with half a brain (and simple addition 1+7=8) would know that Noah took 8 pairs of all birdkind with him on the Ark.

Doesn't that make more sense with what is written than apologists attempt at trying to add there own verses to scripture?

Sure it does.

Alward: If you believe the birds in Genesis 7 should be added to the ones in Genesis 6, then to be logically consistent you have to treat the animals in Genesis 7 the same way. Thus, using your logic, Noah took 1+7+1=9 pairs of animals on the ark. Who else in the world, besides you, Pom, believes this?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward in

inerrantists believe that every word in the bible is literally true; to believe otherwise, they say, is to remove the foundation upon which one may have a certain understanding of how one may achieve salvation and reach the kingdom of heaven.

that makes perfect sense, on one level.

if one could indeed know that everything in the bible is true, then one would just have to turn to the part where the method of salvation is described, do what the bible says, and live forever.

JosephAlward

>>When the author also tells us that man does not know whether "love or hate" awaits him, he cannot be speaking of what awaits the body in the grave; he is speaking of the chance of an afterlife, and whether one finds love, or hate. No mention is made of salvation, but what else could this "love" represent?<<

Read the CONTEXT Joseph. Not just one piece of a sentence. Afterlife is NOT the topic of context. IT IS DEATH ALONE.

We done with this one yet??
>>

No, we're not done yet. You need to explain why you think the author wanted his readers to believe that the "love" was one of the things which could await the corpse in the grave. If you can't do this, you should ask yourself whether the author had something else in mind besides mortal death when he spoke of the love or hate which awaited man.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

39

Is the Flood Story True?

by JosephAlward in

those who have not yet relinquished their right to think for themselves should be virtually certain that the story of noah and the ark is a fable.

those who believe the bible's stories are literally true find it almost impossible to address with a straight face the problems presented below.. then the flood came which destroyed every living thing which was not in the ark: "and every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

" (genesis 7:23).

JosephAlward

An apparently irreconcilable contradictions exists in the Genesis accounts of the number of birds Noah was supposed to take with him. In one place, it says two, in another place it says seven.

19 You are to bring into the ark TWO of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 TWO of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them. 22 Noah did everything just as GOD commanded him. (Genesis 6:17-22)

7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also SEVEN of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

Apologists will attempt to argue that the author didn't bother to tell us that the "seven" birds were supposed to be "clean," and that Noah was ALSO supposed to take two "unclean" birds. If you see that happen in this forum, it will be just one more example of the extremes die-rather-than-admit-to-an-error fundamentalists will go to to defend the inerrancy of their Bible.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward in

inerrantists believe that every word in the bible is literally true; to believe otherwise, they say, is to remove the foundation upon which one may have a certain understanding of how one may achieve salvation and reach the kingdom of heaven.

that makes perfect sense, on one level.

if one could indeed know that everything in the bible is true, then one would just have to turn to the part where the method of salvation is described, do what the bible says, and live forever.

JosephAlward

After RR declared that he was saved, I quoted Ecclesiastes to support my contention that man cannot know whether he is saved or not. According to the Bible:

"No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)

Remarkably, Pom says that "love or hate" should be thought of as "good or bad," and that the verse refers to man's not knowing whether death is good or bad! Everyone then, as now, knows that death is bad, so Pom's interpretation to be too far-fetched to be given serious consideration. Furthermore, the author makes it clear that the state of death is bad, for he says

"the dead...have no further reward" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

When the author also tells us that man does not know whether "love or hate" awaits him, he cannot be speaking of what awaits the body in the grave; he is speaking of the chance of an afterlife, and whether one finds love, or hate. No mention is made of salvation, but what else could this "love" represent?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

39

Is the Flood Story True?

by JosephAlward in

those who have not yet relinquished their right to think for themselves should be virtually certain that the story of noah and the ark is a fable.

those who believe the bible's stories are literally true find it almost impossible to address with a straight face the problems presented below.. then the flood came which destroyed every living thing which was not in the ark: "and every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

" (genesis 7:23).

JosephAlward

Those who have not yet relinquished their right to think for themselves should be virtually certain that the story of Noah and the Ark is a fable. Those who believe the Bible's stories are literally true find it almost impossible to address with a straight face the problems presented below.

Then the flood came which destroyed every living thing which was not in the Ark: "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." (Genesis 7:23)

Now, it is hard enough to understand why the disappointed Lord could not have just waved his hand to make the necessary improvements in existing man instead of killing every human being on earth, but nearly incomprehensible is the Lord's decision to drown the whole planet, destroying "every living substance." After all, the Lord spent the entire third day of creation making the grasses, herbs, and fruit bearing trees (Genesis 1:11-13), and the fifth day making animals (Genesis 1:20-23); why would his anger at man lead him throw all this other good work down the drain? Couldn't the omniscient God think of a way to kill man without killing the grass and animals, too? The grass hadn't offended God, and the animals hadn't done anything wrong, had they? God gave Noah seven days to get ready. How did Noah and his sons build such a huge ark in just seven days? How did Noah cause the animals to come to the Ark? How did they know where it was, and when they had to be there? How did the great white bears and penguins of the polar regions, the kangeroos of the southern hemisphere, and the snakes and gorillas of the tropical rain forests cross the vast oceans and land masses to the Mideast? Once the whales, porpoises, and dolphins got to the Ark, how did they travel up the gangplank? Did the slow-moving snails and turtles from other continents head for the Ark at the same time as the other animals? Did weather conditions permit travel in all cases? How did the polar bears and penguins survive the heat of the Mideast? How were the lions prevented from eating the lambs? The vegetation which many animals eat grows only in their natural habitat; did they bring it with them, and how was it kept fresh for 150 days? How did just eight people manage to feed millions of species? How did Noah and his small family keep track of the special diet of each of the millions of species of animals, and remember which had already been fed, and when? Assuming only two million species of animals, each person on board the Ark would have had to supervise the care and feeding of 250,000 different species each day, some of which would have required three or more feedings per day.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward in

inerrantists believe that every word in the bible is literally true; to believe otherwise, they say, is to remove the foundation upon which one may have a certain understanding of how one may achieve salvation and reach the kingdom of heaven.

that makes perfect sense, on one level.

if one could indeed know that everything in the bible is true, then one would just have to turn to the part where the method of salvation is described, do what the bible says, and live forever.

JosephAlward

Pom writes:

>>"No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)<<

Again, Joseph MAINTAINS his taking things out of context. The above is NOT a text to support a man NOT knowing whether he is saved or not, rather it is a text expounding on the fact that PRESENTLY, without God's justice, all men have the exact same DESTINY.
======
Alward responds:

If by "destiny" you mean "death," I agree that all men (and animals) share the same destiny. However, the verse I quoted above tells us that no man can know whether God waits with loving arms (salvation) or whether man finds only hate after death (no salvation). Thus, the verse is clearly stating that one cannot know whether one will be saved or not.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

37

Can Man See God and Live?

by JosephAlward in

the author of the book of john evidently believed that no man has seen god, while the author of exodus tells us that moses had, indeed, seen god.

either john is wrong, or exodus is; either way, the bible is in error on this point.

here is the evidence:.

JosephAlward

Not asks about the possibility of errors in the Bible and why some persons will debate the issue:

"Why does it matter at all? ....let me know WHY you think this has any impact on my everlasting life or my relationship with Jah or Jesus. I know that you will cite what you have already stated, but how does this impact me and other readers?"

My answer: If your faith is not based on the Bible and any truths that may or may not be found therein, then debates about inerrancy will not impact you in the slightest. However, if your faith depends on the stories in the Bible being generally true, then you should be very concerned about the overall accuracy of the Bible. If your perception of Jah or Jesus is influenced by something you've read in the Bible, and it turns out that that portion of the Bible is false, then you are essentially worshipping a false god. Surely that would impact you, wouldn't you agree? Thus, it is very important to know whether and where the Bible is in error. If you study it closely, you'll find that most of the stories about Jesus Mark wrote were patterned after events in the life of Elijah, Moses, David, and, of course, deeds by the Lord. The Marcan stories are fictional.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward in

inerrantists believe that every word in the bible is literally true; to believe otherwise, they say, is to remove the foundation upon which one may have a certain understanding of how one may achieve salvation and reach the kingdom of heaven.

that makes perfect sense, on one level.

if one could indeed know that everything in the bible is true, then one would just have to turn to the part where the method of salvation is described, do what the bible says, and live forever.

JosephAlward

RR comments re his salvation, "I'm sure, what about you?"

Alward answers:

I have no reason to believe that I or anyone else will be "saved"; I've never met anyone who has returned from the other side and told me what it meant to be "saved."

Furthermore, RR, your certainty regarding your fate is at odds with the teaching in Ecclesiastes:

"No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward in

inerrantists believe that every word in the bible is literally true; to believe otherwise, they say, is to remove the foundation upon which one may have a certain understanding of how one may achieve salvation and reach the kingdom of heaven.

that makes perfect sense, on one level.

if one could indeed know that everything in the bible is true, then one would just have to turn to the part where the method of salvation is described, do what the bible says, and live forever.

JosephAlward

RR answers: "To answer your questions, "is the path to salvation clear?" Sure is. "Believe in the Lord Jesus."
"
Alward responds:

Unfortunately for Christians, it’s not that simple, RR. The Bible gives conflicting advice about the path to salvation. In one place you’re told that faith is not enough, that you must give away all of your possessions: “l everything you have and give to the poor.” (Luke 18:22) Do you plan to do that, or have you done it already, RR?

In another place you’re told that in addition to faith, you must `Love your neighbor as yourself.' …. "Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28) By the way, this is Jesus talking, the same Jesus Pom thinks was and is the “Jesus YHWH” who ordered the slaying of the Amalekites and the murder of the suckling babes in 1 Samuel 15:3.

In yet another place, you’re told that besides faith, you must do good works, “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?” (James 2:14)

And, finally, it doesn’t matter whether you have faith or not, do good works or not, because your salvation, or its absence, was decided before you were born, so no matter WHAT you do, your fate--good or bad--was long ago sealed. “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:3-6)

Now, are you still so sure about how you might be saved?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html